Anyone else on a shoestring?

[Steve_Bentley]

There have been a few postings on here over the months questioning the various changes at PBO, MBM etc. I’ve been subscribing to PBO for about 18 months and as I’m reading everything ‘first time round’ I enjoy the read.

But as I want a ‘get on the water cheaply’ magazine am I reading the right thing?

I can’t remember if I returned the reader survey recently but I’m wondering if anyone else shares my perspective. Basically I don’t have much spare cash but after moving to the coast would love to get a boat to potter around. We have a one-year-old and the missus has done the honourable thing and given up work. In addition I’ve just bought a newish car (V***o!) to keep them safe and spent 9k on a large handbuilt conservatory (and Pa & I were the main hands!). In a nutshell I’d be surprised if I had as much as £5k spare over the next year or two for a boat. I bought an ancient (1970’s) 4.5m Avon which came with a V***o o/b, so with a recon Mariner 30/oars/jackets etc I have some fun for about £1k. Compared to the stupid prices for a rib I’m v. happy with it. Next year I’d like to upgrade but my non-existent budget doesn’t help. I could get a run-down sailyboat for £2k but from Shoreham I may get bored, so I’m thinking a small sportsboat I could trailer about and use B&B’s would allow more change of scenery. If it would fit in the garage it would be ideal! So an old Fletcher sounds good (say £2k)? Well it would be better if it had a modern open bow & seating and perhaps a bit more freeboard to protect it in a chop. I’m getting to the point thinking what I need/can afford is a small cheap old Fletcher/Bikini etc and remodel the deck to make it the shape I think I need, and maybe a canvas pram hood at the front for the passengers to make it more pleasant in emergencies/wind/rain/spray. I think I want the ease of trailering and launching of a small sportsboat with some of the room and comfort of a small cruiser/cuddy! The Americans enjoy this sort of remodelling if a certain website is an example. I'm not going to mention the RCD at the moment (it would still be basically the same boat)!

My question: as a practical project is there a demand for this sort of thing in PBO, or are we limited to more thickly varnished teak map-holders? I know it’s not called ‘Practical Boat Building’ but it has some very able readers by all accounts. I know boating isn't meant to be a cheap past-time but can it not be?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[warrior40]

Try' Sailing Today, 'this seems to be going more like the old PBO that we used to love. Also' Boat Mart 'may be a good read for you,it seems to have lots of projects and cheapie speedy boat things in it..
good luck

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[gjeffery]

I have been reading PBO since the early 80's. I have recently been pulling my old copies apart, filing and indexing what is useful and throwing away the rest. I certainly think that the emphasis has shifted from getting things done through skill, towards paying problems to go away. But, PBO is still playing successfully to a broad constituency. In addition to the practical DIY articles, I also like those which explore basic theory, and which enable me to better understand what I am doing. In this, some repetition is no a bad thing Frequently new presentation of a familiar topic does lead to new understanding.. I quite liked the recent articles on stability and the articles on astro theory, although these days I seldom use astro. I do think though that PBO has drifted.

Perhaps this is a parallel in the general sailing infrastructure, with the traditionals, usually locals, for whom keeping a boat somewhere up a creek was a way of life, to a more commercialy centred environment in which the boat is a sink for excess income, and the boat owners are the legitimate prey of the "marine industry" operators. I do think that there is a niche for a magazine that will strongly champion the traditional values of small boat ownership. I for one, find little pleasure in buying my way out of problems.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Guest]

I found a dog eared battered copy of 'Sailing on a micro budget' by an american author, in a million pound yacht center around the Solent. They, the shop, seemed so releived that it was actually being sold. I got a discount cause of its state.
I've lost it now, but I'd buy it again because of the enthusiasim the author spoke with.

As a shoreham sailor myself, that boredom issue I feel will rise in the end, it has with me. It seems this part of the coast is devoid of anything even remotely interesting compared to other sailing areas, but, this is the local area and thats whats available, if thats where you live, else you need to trailer like you say.
Then you need space for your trailer and/or boat, and as one trailer sailor told me up in the club bar the other week, its now more expensive for him out of the water than in.

I have a Debutante at the Sussex Yacht club which needs to be sold. I have owned her for five years. Contact me if your interested...
Relevent sites....
http://www.ybw.com/cb/debutante.html
http://netnickels.com/tristan/seadart.htm

PBO has had articals of fibreglassing stuff, or new coach roofs being made for special requirements but really in the couple of pages given they aren't 'very practical'.
I feel through years of trial and error that you can mod things and bring old back from the dead, but, in the end it costs pretty much what it was going to cost getting something half decent in the first place. Actually then, given this, alot of stuff should be given away and not paid for, tho the owner often thinks 'its of classic status' when infact she/it is a wreck.

How long does it take to paint a boat?
Talking of simply painting, the instructions say 'leave for 24 hours between coats'.
In other words, you can put one coat of paint on a day.
In any given month, you have 8 days off work - the weekends.
Given that 50% of those days you'll be doing family things or other things anyhow, then you have four day left. Of those four days, you have to hope that the weather is kind so you can paint or fibreglass. And the reality is, some days will be less than ideal.
Paint manufacturers recommend you put four coats of pink primer, two under coat and one or two top coats, thats eight coats in all.

So its easy to see that painting your boat takes three months, or eight days work.
This I feel explains why it takes so much longer than you think things will take, and, given when I worked this out I was living in south london with the boat in shoreham, there was 80 pounds in fuel costs hidden in this not to mention the hours driving up and down.
The there was the paint, which was I think 12 quid per tin, so its another 100 quid in round money, or was it 17 pounds per pot??

And then you think your going to spend some of the summer sailing and doing the refit in the winter...with even poorer weather. Cold tempratures.

Its easier by far to pay a bit more and have it already done for you cause otherwise it just goes on and on.
Some people it works for, they get on with resurection, but I am coming around to paying for it to go away cause I haven't time for it anymore.

think twice and think hard, its easier in the long run....and often running is the better part of valour...too many unfinished projects tell their story

best regs

Alex



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[ruthhobson]

Do you think the shift in content is also reflecting a change in society / consumers?

People with less time and fewer skills to complete a large project. A culture where we don't repair we just replace. The 24 hr culture where many people expect everything to happen yesterday.

Just a thought.

Ruth

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[tome]

I think you're generally right here Ruth. However, our boat is a 'special case' to us. I hope to do some serious blue water cruising in the coming years together with my wife.

This throws a different perspective on what we do with our boat. We need to be entirely self-sufficient and able to repair any item which might fail. I wouldn't dream of servicing my car (only ever open the bonnet to top up windscreen fluid or the odd drop of oil). On the boat I do all the engine servicing myself, and this also goes for plumbing, most of the rigging, electrics etc. Karen has picked up on this and enrolled herself on a diesel engine maintenance course in a couple of weeks time.

We've had the boat since August and I could have hastened many jobs by seeking professional help (eg new anchor windlass is still in its packaging). I fully expect it will be the end of next season before she is 'ready' in our eyes. Meanwhile, we sail her a lot (even through the winter months) which has led to many rigging and handling improvements.

The point of my post is that I believe the boat has lifted us out of this culture even though I'm the first to admit it hasn't been done on a shoestring. Previous boats were, especially my first which I could barely afford.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[MIKE_MCKIE]

Whatever you plan on spending, add 200%!!.
I bought a 26' sloop last year & sailed it from Plymouth to Brighton over 3 days, which was good fun. Then it sat for weeks due to lack of time to get down there. (I live in Farnborough, Hants so it takes 90 minutes legal, less if no-one is looking) As the end of the season approached I planned on 3 months on the hard, with fitting a new engine/gearbox & prop, plus a new coat of antifoul & boot-topping. The boat came out in October, as Premier Marinas were offering 25% discount (save some money here I thought!!) However due again to lack of time I ended up getting the engine professionally installed. Expensive & value for money, however DEFINITELY not included in the budget!!! Then due a combination of poor weather & lack of time, I was faced with getting the underwater painting done in ONE DAY, before the relaunch!!! This proved to be fun, as when I arrived at 0600 it was pissing with rain & about 2 degrees above freezing! The hull, needless to say was wringing wet! Necessity being the mother of invention, I went to the nearest hire shop & got a gas torch, which fitted nicely onto my cooker gas bottle & with flame thrower in one hand and paint roller in the other the first coat went on in double time. By the time that was finished, it was dry, due to a nice warm hull, so on went the second coat. The Boottopping followed & all completed in one day, although I was almost a hospital case. The 5 guys on the next (smaller) boat managed one coat between them (using my gas torch!) & then retired to the pub crying of overwork!
My point being as someone else has said, sometimes it pays to pay, just so you end up with some time on the water. Needs a lot of looking at tho, preferably before you buy the black hole!
Having said that I was sailing in January & plenty since, so guess it was all worth it!
Best of luck getting afloat, we all moan about it sooner or later!
brgds
Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Steve_Bentley]

"flame thrower in one hand and paint rollerin the other"- now that sounds like a particularly skillful manoeuvre! Knowing my luck the paint would be highly flamable and I'd be back to square one just as I was finishing!

Also sounds like the sort of 'mission impossible' task I somehow end up in, such as a 36hr non-stop sleepless trip by train from SW France I once took (that involved a visit to SE France when I didn't know I needed to get off the train, and cycle ride from Boulogne to Calais on unlit newly built roads at 3am), or driving from S London to N London, knocking down an outside loo and filling a skip until 1am and driving back again on a week night.

We all need a little excitement every now and then to prove we're alive!

Happy sailing- I'm sure you're having a wonderful time now (until the next lay-up
).

Rgds, Steve

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[craigbalsillie]

Boat Mart..

does it have cheapie sail boat projecty types in too?

Is it available nationally (sorry internationally I'm in Jockland)?

cheers

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[stamfordian]

I am six months or so into a Project to restore/refitt a 23 ft sports fisher ,you actually go through a kind of hell sometimes and your partner thinks you think more of it than her...,you get very familiar with chandlery and equipment suppliers,and tend to spend every evening surfing the internet to locate that ilusive part youv,e just snapped!!,Painting as mentioned is at times nerve racking if your outside....you mix the paint start painting and a large cloud rolls nearer and nearer...do you stop??no you can,t the paint will go off anyway...do you put it on the boat??for the rain to spoil...ect ect ect.
all in all if you take on a project you really need a boat/runaround on the water then you still get to go on the water.
As mentioned also you have to patient...VERY!!!, because every thing you try to do usually takes at least twice the time you allowed to do it....the best approach is to take your time with it and not worry about ,"getting on the water for the season",that,s why so many unfinshed boats are available.
Hope this sheds some light ,above all don,t start a project unless your absolutly sure you can finish it....no matter how long it takes,and be prpared for some serious knockbacks.....
Also be prepared for some great fellings when somebody walks by and says,your doing a bl**dy good job there mate,and then proceeds to hold you up for an hour!!!.
It seems a bit heavy this post but i personally really enjoy this sort of hobby,
If you do decide to start good luck....must dash supposed to be looking at boarding platforms....more dosh/forums/images/icons/frown.gif.

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/stamfordian>http://www.arweb.co.uk/argallery/stamfordian</A>

 

[VicS]

Re: Shoreham..boring?

I know a guy who owns a 19 ft Seawych based in Shoreham. A few years ago he sailed well up the east coast and back, the following year he went to the Scillies and back, the year after that he cicumnavigated the British mainland. Last year he went to the Med with the intention of spending the winter there before returning via the French canals.

So Shoreham is only as boring as you let it be.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Steve_Bentley]

I've been following your progress on MoboChat and I'm certainly getting to appreciate what a major project these things can be (not sure I'd like all that painting!).

I've spent over 7 renovating the last two dumps into reasonably pleasant houses so I know the 'you must feel so proud of your work' aspect doesn't always exist! You do have the comfort in knowing it's not bodged and you haven't been ripped off though.

I've never been proud of doing the work myself on things but I'm usually proud of the result. If the pics are anything to go by you should certainly be proud of your results. Hope it's 'me too' one day..

Rgds, Steve

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Steve_Bentley]

It's certainly in WHSmith London Victoria (not much help to you I'm afraid!) as I had a quick look after Warrior40's recommendation (did I also mention i spend 18.5hrs per week commuting to London?).

Always thought it was like Exchange & Mart but it does have articles.

Looks interesting- thanks to Warrior40 for the suggestion.

Rgds, Steve



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[richardandtracy]

Shoestring. Your budget? No way. You got loads'a dosh..

Seriously though, how desperate are you for cash? It sounds as if this is a temporary thing. If not, consider building your own.

Building your own takes time & effort, but less money than you may expect. It can be done in your garden until launch time (enabling longer time to work on it). Consider the Yachting Monthly/ Maurice Griffiths "Eventide" yacht design. Last time I saw [a few years back, I admit], the plans were £25. It looked as if you could probably build the hull for a grand on top of that, woodworking skills only needed. Then fitting out - if you want to sail then you'll put up with a bit of a ragged mess inside for a couple of years. Try a Junk Rig - real cheap to build, and doesn't require much in the way of deck hardware either - the problem is getting a big enough stick.

This way would let you have a bigger boat than you would otherwise afford. Self build is RCD exempt too - so long as you keep it 5 years.

Not convinced? Try Annie & Pete Hill's book "Voyaging on a small income" - £15/week total for two in 1990. Now that's real cheap sailing. Wish I could get it down to that myself...

Regards

Richard.


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[boatmad2]

Boat Mart is national I get it in the north east from Smiths. They also have a web site with a forum but gets very little use.
I have been getting it for two years and it gets better all the time for us small boaters.
Incidently my first boat an Owens 17 speed boat cost nothing it was a clear away job, about £500 for a small outboard and new cushions etc all home made and a home built trailor and it now looks great with a blue and white respray.
If you are taking family with you go for a small fast cruiser it gives some shelter from the weather and privicy when needed.
For your budget you would get a Good Shetland 570 or a Norman 20 or a Fairline Vixen all with trailors.
PS try Boats for sale magazine it will give you some idea of prices.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[PBrooks]

Richard and Tracy said "Building your own takes time & effort, but less money than you may expect. It can be done in your garden until launch time (enabling longer time to work on it). "

Lots of time & effort is spot on, but, unfortunately, it's not as cheap as you'd think. I reckon my boat, a Golant Gaffer (19ft), will cost around £12-£14k when finished. Just the (new) diesel engine will cost more than an old, but presumably serviceable, Corribee. I know you can make compromises with second hand parts / engines etc, but that is very hard to do when you've spent all that time building. I calculated that even if I cut all corners, using old parts and casting my own keel, it would still cost £9k or so - and add at least another year to the time scale.

Yes it is a lot cheaper than buying new or nearly new (and you get the pleasure of building), but if you're on a tight budget, there are probably easier ways to get afloat.
Good luck

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[mike_kolling]

I've been skint ever since I owned a boat!



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[richardandtracy]

Can't entirely agree with you there. Sorry.

My 36ft Spray cost a fraction over £10K. I don't have an engine yet, so something should be added for that I suppose. I made almost everything else myself from scrap where possible - salvaged from wherever was possible (you'd be amazed at what turns up at the local dump!).
To give you an idea, my 4'dia, 3 bladed wind generator cost £15, of which £12.95 was the book showing me how to do it ("Brakedrum Windmill Plans" by Kieth Piggot - I can recommend it) and the remainder was the wire to coil the alternator. The diodes were salvaged off alternators in wrecked cars. I magnetised my own iron magnets from lumps of steel, the wooden blades were from pallets. The bearings & drum came from a burnt out joy-ride wreck at the local scrapyard (heat damaged steel is dodgy for spares, so I got them for nowt).

None of my cast aluminium bits cost anything more than the cost of the charcoal to melt the stuff (about 90p/lb) as I got the aluminium for nothing - scrap again, the firm I got it off reckoned it'd cost more to sell it than thow it away and I got 60 castings weighing about 100kg in one go (along with some 321SS bar and HT shackles). The foundry itself cost a massive £2.50. Now that it's almost too late, I discover small scale charcoal production is feasible (www.lindsaybks.com), so even the 90p/lb could have been reduced.

Ballast on my boat - about 3.5 tonnes - cost nothing. Steel scrap from engineering firms that otherwise have to pay for its removal.

The level of comfort I'm prepared to put up with is low. I accept that, and that's the way I am. To be honest I loathe the level of furnishings & gimmickry in modern production boats - there's so much un-necessary clutter, things to go wrong and stuff to deteriorate/ get damaged. I've got better things to spend my meagre amounts of cash on.

Oh yeah, as to second hand value. I don't care. I ain't ever gonna sell. When I'm gone I want my relatives to pack me off in the boat & torch it 12 miles out.. Well maybe not the last bit, might have to be 200 miles out.

Regards

Richard



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[craigbalsillie]

Out of Touch

<<I've got better things to spend my meagre amounts of cash on.

If you think 10 grand is a meagre amount of money you want to try getting afloat
with a budget in the 100's of pounds.
Even the title of this string is laughable, 5 grand!!! A shoestring...

come on!!!


<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[chippie]

Richard, I admire your perseverance and like you 'can do it' attitude , does earning a living fit into the equation? I find that with the best intentions in the world I have bugger all time left to work on the boat after earning a living, but being self employed can structure a bit of time off after an intensive period of work . Being in my fifties I now have an understanding of how little time is available after trying to do the right thing by clients , family etc.

What is 321 stainless?---I am familiar with 316&304

Cheers

<hr width=100% size=1>