Any Surveyors? - Am I being set up? 7 photos

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I haven't read though all of this post, but I think I have the feel of it. My suggestion would be to to contact the yard and say "Many thanks for all you very helpfull comments. Can you now please prepare to put the boat back in the water, as is. I wish to take it to another yard for any work." That should get them thinking.
Allan

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I wish it were as simple as that /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif and how I would love to do it /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

There arent many places to get lifted in Malta, and the yard arent doing the work, the firm from my marina are.
 
I have to say I feel some sympathy for the yard and cannot understand the "Rogue Traders" response from some posters.

It may just be that they are acting responsibly towards a distant owner and also covering their own backs, in a potential no-win situation. If they just followed your original instructions and you later found the AF was peeling off in places, they might fear that you would criticise them for doing a botched job by putting AF on a clearly unsuitable surface. Similarly, if the keel was to fall off, they would be crucified if they had spotted the cracking and failed to say anything.

The yard seems to be in a "damned if they do, damned if they don't" situation.
 
Lemain asks about the keel.

If the boat were mine, I would do exactly as Richard says he is going to do - fly out and have a look.

I would, however, look at the keel/hull joint and I bet a bit of scraping with a screwdriver will discover a relatively small gap - more a dip in the surface of the sealant. I would clean and fill it. I would also ask the yard to describe exactly what they are worried about. It is probably the rust.

I think Lemain's boat is a Nauticat and I believe they have encapsulated lead keels so the comment is not relevant to him.

All Moodys up to the M54 had iron keels which tend to look a bit like this after a while. You just have to clean them up, apply some rustproofing, primer and antifouling and you are ok for a few more years. There is no history of Moodys needing new keels because of the problem which is common with many boat including Westerleys.

Sorry if this sounds a bit like a lecture, but it is meant to share what I (think) I know for others - not to be authoritarian or sound like a "know it all" - I am just learning too.

Having been savaged on other posts before, I hope nobody takes this the wrong way.

Kindest

Neil
 
The yard is doing its job, the only thing I would doubt is the assertion that keel is moving/has moved.

The sealant around the keel root on these boats seems to last about 3 years from new then replacing it it becomes an two/three year ritual.

Anodes, are anodes are anodes. If the boat sinks because of a faulty thro hull - they have alerted you it and absolved themselves of responsibility.

Nothing to worry about
 
Richard

If it's Manoel Island Yacht Yard, you can be quite certain they're not setting you up.

The photographs are not good enough to ascertain if the old antifouling is as bad as claimed, but the keel certainly needs rebedding and the bolts inspected.

Whilst one needs to be wary, paranoia is a risk.

Manoel Island have an international reputation - ask any competent surveyor - they may be sticklers for doing things properly, but unless you have a look yourself or have a competent 3rd party inspection you would be most unwise to NOT go along with their opinion.
 
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My suspicions are raised as he only raises the issues after I have asked him to quote for replacing anodes and stern gland packing, to which his reply was that he doesnt quote for little jobs like that, but will do them and charge based on parts and labour, to which my reply was that I would do them myself.

My thoughts are that I am bringing the boat back to the UK in late summer, and Glasson Dock has a yard that I trust, so I am inclined to get her antifouled in Malta and deal with any serious matters when I get her home - perhaps have an overnight lift next Spring when things will either have got worse, or remain the same.

Any more comments welcomed

Richard

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I think I would share your suspicions but the problem is that you cant tell whether the keel has moved without going to have a look. Even less can we tell you. And of course the keel could have been hit bringing her out.

If you are going to do sea cocks and anodes yourself that implies you will be going there when the boats out of the water. Defer your decision until then?

Things might have changed but I cant imagine getting anything cheaper in the UK. I've just been quoted 5k for the sort of clean up and coppercoat that your boat needs, and thats from a boatyard in Wales!
 
Re: Richard

Hi,

There are other people that will do the prep work and antifouling for you. One option is from Camelleri in Gzira. I would suspect they would be an awful lot cheaper than the people from your marina (who I would also suspect would be the most expensive on the island and judging by the email, not the most trustworthy).

As has been said, Manoel Island yard are a pretty competent bunch. If you had a word with David Church, I am sure that they would check your keel boats for you.

I really don't see what all the fuss is about as she looks like 80% of the boats that are on the hard when lifted.

Cheers
 
Richard asked a Surveyor to look at his boat. No Surveyor in his right mind is going to say the A/F is Ok to slap another coat on, because you can sue him if it falls off again. There is rust on the keel, so he has to say that it needs seeing to. He would be professionally negligent not to. There is a crack at the back of the keel. He has to say get it dealt with, as if it dropped off later he would be in for massive damages. Ditto the seacocks - which could sink the boat, and the anodes.

You asked for his professional opinion, and you have got it. All these things need attention to bring it up to top standard. Now if most Moodys have a crack at the back of the keel, and you are happy to slap another coat of AF and risk a bit of detachment, and you are happy your seacocks will function properly, etc etc, then you can happily ignore what he said. But equally, if things DO go wrong later, he has covered his back, and in todays compensation oriented world, you will not have any comeback against him. So no, he is not ripping you off - he is simply covering his back. You asked him if it was OK. No its not, but he simply can not say its OK to botch it, even if it is.

In other words: ask a professional, you will get the professionals answer with built in liability clauses. Ask an amateur, and you will probably get away with it. No liability accepted for my advice of course - I am just an amateur! /forums/images/graemlins/laugh.gif
 
I did a fair bit of Surveying with a well known company a few years back now and would make a few quick points.
You dont say that you have ever had the keel looked at by a surveyor at any point.
If you havent and it clearly does look slightly out of place in the photo's, then i would have it looked at by a good surveyor at some point just to make sure.
The joint between the hull and the keel could well have been filled with something and may have fallen out causing the bad look but it doesen't explain the slightly crooked keel.
A gap between the hull and keel is common as the moulding and the keel are often not true to each other once they are bolted together so needing the gap filled.
You will need to make sure which it is. A moved keel or the filler dropped out to be sure.
Its a good idea to have the keel bolts checked every so often on an older boat.
It may well turn out there is nothing wrong and then thats all good and you can put that in the boat log that it was looked at and tested by a good surveyor.
But if there is a problem then you may well have averted a nasty accident.
The antifoul does indeed from the pictures need to be stripped and blasted back and renewed.
On a sailing boat all this patchy antifouling wont help cruising speeds at all and wont last long compared to a smooth flat new coating but its a matter of preference i guess.
Seacocks can be stripped,cleaned and rebuilt by yourself as can the gland packing if you feel confident in your engineering abilities. You can fit your own anodes and you can slap a couple of coats of antifoul on.
Only thing i would do if it was my boat and i hadent had it checked by a good yacht surveyor is maybe get the keel and keel bolts looked at.
If all is well maybe have the keel faired in to match the hull stub where it bonds up and then re filled with a recommended filler before antifouling it.
From what you have been saying you obviously dont like or trust the boatyard where the boat is kept.
Further from your post i can see only fair points raised by the boatyard so i can only assume that there is something other than the letter to you that you dont like.
All boatyards if asked will point out all defects to a boat they can see or recomend work they think would be a good idea to have done before launching.
Boatyards are there to make money and suport many small companies and employees.
Its up to the individual if they dont like the boatyard charges or hourly rate whether to have the boatyard do the work to thier boat or do it yourself.
Hope this helps
Joe
 
Richard - Similar to earlier comment my Westerly Discus had a crack around the keel when I bought her 2 years ago and the surveyor said no big problem. He recommended that the best (only) product to treat it with is polysulphide which is strong enough to seal but still flexible. I ground back the gap this winter and filled with a product in a tube from Arbo. Was not a difficult job but will have to wait until the end of the season to see if the crack has re-emerged.
 
That makes sense, the keel did look very slightly out of position to me. I have heard that crevice corrosion on stainless keel bolts can be a problem - do you have a view on that?
 
Re: Richard

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If it's Manoel Island Yacht Yard, you can be quite certain they're not setting you up.

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Charles,

It isnt Manoel Island doing the work - it is the firm from Portomaso Marina. Having refused to quote for anodes and stern gland packing, I said I would do the jobs myself. Only then did these "big" issues come up.

Yet this morning they said they were currently planning to put her back in the water next week... before I get there, (so not actually that worried that there is a major problem). I have instructed them not to put her back in the water until I instruct them. I have also instructed them to do some sanding, priming and antifouling, but leaving the keel and joint not painted and available for inspection. I have asked a surveyor to quote for a hull inspection - to be done when I get there.

I think I have it under control - we will see.

Richard
 
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Richard asked a Surveyor to look at his boat.

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I didnt ask a surveyor!! Bit of Chinese Whispers methinks /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif ... the people doing the antifouling profferred the gloomy advice immediately after I had refused to let them do some work without a quote, (changing anodes and stern gland packing)....

"we dont quote for petty jobs we just do them and charge accordingly", were words that werent said, but were implied.

I have my reasons for doubting the sincerity of the advice, and will make all clear when the boat is on its way back to Glasson Dock.

I have now asked a surveyor to quote for a report to be done when I get there.
 
Richard, I wouldn't expect anyone to quote for anodes or stern tube packing. It's not so much that they are "petty jobs" but they can be open-ended and take much longer than you expected. For example, you find that the local supplier can't supply anodes with the same hole pitch so you end up spending 30 mins to an hour (pick-up to put down) drilling and filing in the workshop. If you are charging out £40 per hour, that's a whopping uplift on the ten minutes it would have taken if the hole centres were correct. I seldom manage to avoid drilling my anodes and for the bowthruster anodes it is a two hour job in a workshop as they have to be fabricated from standard parts (cut, filed, drilled quite accurately). That's why I do my own anodes and keep a stock of modified ones that I can change underwater with the diving gear between lift-outs.

As for stern-gland packing, it really depends on access and how easily the parts come apart, and how easy it is to get the old packing out. Very variable - it can be a bugger to get out.

However, knowing you, I am sure that your 'gut feel' about the sincerity of the advice is well-founded but in case you haven't done the jobs before yourself I though I'd just mention the uncertainties of those jobs.
 
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However, knowing you, I am sure that your 'gut feel' about the sincerity of the advice is well-founded but in case you haven't done the jobs before yourself I though I'd just mention the uncertainties of those jobs.

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This guy wouldnt give me a price for toilet grade waste pipe and delivered the expensive Vetus rubber stuff without my ordering it..... When I said I would only make a decision to keep it when I had a price, he immediately responded with €13.75 per metre... I still dont know if that is inclusive of VAT. The cheaper white pipe is €8 per metre in town, so I have paid either £30, or £40, more than I needed to, for something that should have cost me £40.

I know how long the jobs might take, but I also know the exact price of the anodes and the packing, and my time is free, so my costs are known.

Thanks for the heads up.

Richard
 
Move on. Go somewhere else. From what you have written you clearly have no confidence in the guy, and I suspect he thinks you are a difficult possibly penny pinching customer.
 
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Move on. Go somewhere else.

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Couldnt agree more, but Cancer and a lack of berths in Malta kind of stitched me up with this guy for the period.

Moving on is already planned, but it couldnt happen until after lifting and antifouling, and it's a shame I cant leave just as soon as the boat is back in the water.
 
I saw some weeping from the hull / keel join when we had the boat lifted last year. I assumed that I would at some stage have to have the keel dropped and re-bedded but someone suggested in this post that it was ok to re-torque the bolts. Surely there is already salt water in the join then there's a problem! Or am I being over concerned?
 
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Moving on is already planned, but it couldnt happen until after lifting and antifouling, and it's a shame I cant leave just as soon as the boat is back in the water.

[/ QUOTE ]If you are fit enough to dive you really don't need antifoul for your passage back. Leave it. As for the toilet hoses, presumably they were 'sort of working' but getting blocked periodically? If you do around six treatments of hydrochloric, as I suggested, it will take you back months of scale-building then a full treatment every week in each toilet will take you back to clean pipes. You're going to need acid every week anyway, to avoid getting into the same situation. So, aside from the keel, unless there is nothing else, you could drop in and leave on the first decent forecast, it seems to me. It's the keel issue that is the worry....

You probably know about this but in case you don't and in any case for the benefit of others following this thread, stainless is only non-corroding in the presence of oxygen. There is enough O2 in seawater to be OK, at the top of the ocean. However, bolts that go through basically sealed areas but wet, can corrode as badly as mild steel. The corrosion starts at one point and then works its way in, like a termite. The bolt then suddenly gives way - bang. Frequently, due to symmetry, all the bolts on a keel, or anywhere with the bolts in tension (can just be the tension of doing bolts up tightly) corrode at the same time then one goes, putting the load onto the others....domino effect.

That's why it is usual to withdraw stainless keel bolts periodically, for careful visual inspection. If a keel looks a bit out of position you don't really know if it's had a ding, was assembled like that and filled to cover the bad assembly or whether you have lost one or more keel bolts. If it WAS crevice corrosion then it is serious but thankfully very, very cheap to repair - just new bolts. You'd really need some input from someone who has actually done this job several times on a M44 for best advice - the MOA is pretty active so I guess there are some reliable DIYers there?
 
Re: Richard

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If it's Manoel Island Yacht Yard, you can be quite certain they're not setting you up.

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Charles,

It isnt Manoel Island doing the work - it is the firm from Portomaso Marina.
Richard

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And therein lies your problem, I am sorry to say. I believe that in past posts I had expressed my opinion about the guys at Portomaso (expensive cowboys) as well as Manoel Island Yachtyard (proper professionals, it is where I'll be coming out in April). Your experience would appear to bear me out.
 
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