Any Surveyors? - Am I being set up? 7 photos

[Richard10002]

Further to a recent post about the exhorbitant charges quoted for antifouling my boat, I have now received the following pictures of her out of the water, along with the following by email:


"After having inspected the boat further today, I feel I have to inform you of the following.


- The hull is in dire need of stripping as it is full of patches and any new layers of paint would not adhere probably
- The keel is dislodged from it's position and also is in dire need of stripping and treating.
- Do you intend to have the sea-cocks serviced?
- Do you really mean to lower the boat without zinc anodes??

To cut the long story short, I feel that I have to inform you that should you intend not to do the above mentioned work, we would not be responsible for this work and any consequent damage to the hull and boat itself. Furthermore, should the boat be surveyed, the condition of the hull, especially the keel would not be satisfactory."

The hull and keel look no different to when she was last out of the water in 2006. A good sanding, spot priming, and 2 coats of antifoul, seem to have lasted particularly well to me, and the same again would seem to be all that is required. I intend to replace the anodes and stern gland packing myself, and I will also deal with the seacocks myself.

Any experienced comments welcomed

A somewhat worried Richard, (in manchester at the moment)

 

[Heckler]

I dont have any qualifications except having worked in maintenance all my life, underground, offshore and in the middle east and africa, BUT IMHO there is not a lot wrong, your antifoul has quite a few layers and some are flaking off, this is what happens when you get to a certain thickness. The keel is shedding layers of paint and anti foul, there is some surface rust, so what? its cast iron, not a prob, grind back and slap some primer and hammerite on, followed by antifoul. It looks like my 351 looked when I first had her, she passed her survey ok. Dont worry about it, do as you did last time, clean touch up and antifoul. They are doing the same as the latest viruses, trying to scare you!
Stu

 

[Severnman]

Is there any movement evident on the keel? Can you access and examine keel bolts which I would put as just as important. Cosmetic issues can have certain boatyards rubbing their hands with glee. Without physically looking at your boat (and even pictures can lie!) it will be very difficult for any forumite to determine if the keel has 'dislodged' per se.

 

[lw395]

From the photo's I would want to have a good look at the keel joint if it were my boat.
Patches of antifoul flaking is a judgement as to how much you accept might flake during the year vs the time and effort of removing the lot.
Ideally you might put a lot of effort into the keel, but it wont get much worse by november if you do a basic de-rust and patch prime job.
A lot depends on your standards, but I would not be sure about the keel joint just from these pictures. Its probably fine, but I expect you want better than 'probably'. All my amateur opinion. Has it had a knock?

 

[30boat]

It appears that there is a small gap around the keel joint but it can very well be that it's only on the outside.I would retorque the keelbolts providing there were no leaks.The antifoul is just tatty but it's not a problem really.As was said before the keel rust can be localy treated and primed.A few tons of cast iron won't be harmed by a little surface rust.

 

[Mudplugger]

Richard, not surveyor, but been around boats for the last 30 years, so please treat comments as observations:
To be fair, if you are paying to have anti-fouling applied, then they are not going to be able to produce a reasonable result without taking the old back. If you are doing it yourself, then your decision, but you are getting to the stage of grit blasting or scraping /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
Looking at the keel joint photo's, not sure that one can see any evidence of movement, but would certainly motivate me to have a closer look and check the tightness of the keel bolts, and condition of keel joint sealing.
Not nice when you are back at home....HTH

 

[BlueSkyNick]

Richard, others have commented on the keel and antifoul, and I dont feel competent to add to that.

However, I would say the anodes must be checked and replaced if necessary at any lift out. Ditto servicing the sea cocks. I had some which were ceased or very tight because they were not exercised for over two years prior to us buying the boat.

 

[alec]

Just to add to the above comments.

To satisfy yourself, why not get just a hull survey from a competent surveyor .

Friends of mine had a similar situation and it only cost about £150. He will of course only be working for YOU. Not the yard.

 

[adl]

Richard

I am not a surveyor but your photos look almost exactly how our westerly looked when we had he lifted out 3 years ago when she was 8 years old. Following a jetwash bits of the antifouling had peeled of similar to your phots of the main hull, in truth even though in previous years we had keyed the existing AF bit would still pull of when being repainted.

The hull/keel joint also was showing a similar gap, this wasn't due to any movement just the sealant deteroriating between the two.

The keel also had a few rust patches.

I bit the bullet and hand scrapped with a one and a half inch scrapper the whole hull back to the gell coat, it was good for the soul! Probably took about 8 days, then the gel coat was washed downed, mechanically sanded twice, washed down and then copper coated.

The keel had an epoxy coating applied following preperation with a drill mounted wire brush.

The boat only gets jetwashed off once a season now with only minimal growth.

If I was you I would instruct the boat yard to take the existing AF off hull and keel, treat the keel, think of all that extra weight! Then apply a new AF.

Change anodes, service stopcocks.

If you go coppercoat then its twice the price but you will save in the long run, I have applied it to 60 ft oysters doing the med and carribbian circuits and it fine.

 

[Richard10002]

Thanks to all for the comments so far. As I said, the keel is no different to the way it looked in 2006, and the keelbolts are solid as a rock in the bilge. There is water that gets into the bilge, but it is fresh, not seawater, so nothing is seeping up from the keel.

Definitely not been aground or had a knock since I bought her 3 years ago, and I'm pretty sure the same goes for the previous 3 years when she was owned by my father.

During 2006 and 2007, I regularly scuba dived under the hull, and never noticed anything to worry about - even changed the prop shaft anode in the water when it was necessary. The slight gap between keel and hull was there in 2006, when the yard advised that it was no big deal, and it doesnt look any worse now. She has been sat in the marina since October 2007.

On the anodes and seacocks, he mentions these in his email after I have said that I will be going out to the boat in early April and will do them before she goes back in the water - not quite sure why he felt the need to mention them.

My suspicions are raised as he only raises the issues after I have asked him to quote for replacing anodes and stern gland packing, to which his reply was that he doesnt quote for little jobs like that, but will do them and charge based on parts and labour, to which my reply was that I would do them myself.

My thoughts are that I am bringing the boat back to the UK in late summer, and Glasson Dock has a yard that I trust, so I am inclined to get her antifouled in Malta and deal with any serious matters when I get her home - perhaps have an overnight lift next Spring when things will either have got worse, or remain the same.

Any more comments welcomed

Richard

 

[Skyva_2]

Richard,

Looks to me like a strip of the hull and keel really is required after 2 more years in the water, but you could leave it till you get the boat back in the UK.

Maybe the keel/hull joint needs remaking.

If you check the keel bolts are torqued it will take the trip home OK. Stern gland and anodes are a couple of hours work at most.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
If I was you I would instruct the boat yard to take the existing AF off hull and keel, treat the keel, think of all that extra weight! Then apply a new AF.

[/ QUOTE ]

That would be the ideal solution, but the prices are already a rip off, and I shudder to think how much they would charge for stripping and preparing, (I'm pretty sure I am being charged about €40 per hour for simple sanding and antifouling). I would rather do that particular job myself, or have somewhere that I know and trust do it.

Thanks for the thoughts

Richard

 

[Noddy]

Get the 'Rogue Traders' TV programme on the job.

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
Get the 'Rogue Traders' TV programme on the job.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed, but not sure it would be good TV /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Quite spooky that an elderly lady was being stitched up with 3 grands worth of unnecessary dampproofing, whilst I am concerned about being stitched up with unnecessary stripping etc.

 

[Heckler]

Richard
further to my comments, the sealant strip between keel and hull on my 351 was in poor condition as well, i stripped it out, it looked like yours, i power wire brushed the joint and put a sikaflex bead there, 2 years later when i sold the surveyor commented on the fact that the original beneteau seal was still good!! hee hee!!
If you are coming back to the uk i would give it all a cursory scrape and a single coat of cheap antifoul. The Jotun seaforce 30 on ebat now is particularly good value. Then when back here get someone you trust to slurry blast back to the gel coat and take it from there.
Stu
PS puffthemagicdragon is maltese, be careful what you say here?

 

[Anonymous]

The AF, anodes and seacocks are straightforward. If you don' t want major works in Malta then as long as the seacocks still shut off smoothly leave them, no problem. Anodes must be replaced if badly eroded. You don't HAVE to have antifoul! You dive so as long as you are prepared to scrub every so often, don't even have that done if the labour is expensive or if it's a bad time to raise the cash.

It's the keel. Without torquing them there is no way you could know if they are tight or not -- you can gently drop the yacht down onto the keel on the lift and see if there is movement but of course you have to pay for shoring-up again afterwards if there is movement and it can't be fixed then and there. Sometimes bolts take a HECK of a force if the keel moves off centres.

If it was me, with my experience of keelbolts (some, but not huge), and I was in the UK with the yacht in Malta I would ask either a pro surveyor to take a look or a trusted friend with a lot of experience of DIY in this class of work. Or maybe I would tell them to leave her out of the water until I get back and then sort it once I have seen for myself.

A dodgy keel is about the worst possible defect you can have on a yacht.

 

[NeilE]

Richard

Statistically Moody 44s don't normally have keel problems - I should ask him if he is worried about the rust or any movement of the keel he has seen.

The best way to check for keel movement is to watch as they put the boat on the chocks after lifting her out. If there is movement you see it in the water coming out of the hull / keel joint. (John Cherry told me that at Moodys yard some time ago). Since the boat is already ashore that is not an option for you of course.

The rust on the keel is not great, but nothing to worry about. The hull / keel joint looks as if it just needs scraping out and new compound putting in.

The antifouling really does need doing and does look very flaky - reminiscent of a yard not keying the old stuff properly.

Seacocks and anodes -easy peasy

But you know all this yourself don't you!!!

I am sure she is a lovely boat and will get you back to the UK whatever you do, but a little time spent on the above would be best, I am sure!

Good luck

Neil

 

[Anonymous]

What is your recommendation to Richard regarding his keel?

 

[Richard10002]

[ QUOTE ]
What is your recommendation to Richard regarding his keel?

[/ QUOTE ]

Hi David

Thanks for your comments above.

Neil said:

"The rust on the keel is not great, but nothing to worry about. The hull / keel joint looks as if it just needs scraping out and new compound putting in. "

This seems to be a consensus amongst Moody Owners, and one, or two, have had surveyors comment on rusty keels and the slight gap at the edge of the joint.

I have been in contact with a YDSA Affilate surveyor in Malta, and am awaiting a reply.

Personally I dont think there is a problem, other than cosmetics, but I plan to fly out in early April to see for myself.

Richard

 

[Allan]

I haven't read though all of this post, but I think I have the feel of it. My suggestion would be to to contact the yard and say "Many thanks for all you very helpfull comments. Can you now please prepare to put the boat back in the water, as is. I wish to take it to another yard for any work." That should get them thinking.
Allan