Any insurance recommendations (NOT Y Insurance)

[Chris_Robb]

Please keep us updated.
AFAIK an endorsement corrects or adds terms to the base policy.
But if you are saying the the endorsement isn't correct, I suggest that you get it changed until it IS correct.

You cannot have contradictions in a Policy. The main certificate in English is the main document and must be correct. The one in spanish is an additional document to fulfill Spanish requirements for a document that cover third party liability.

You must get this changed or change insurers

 

[Chris_Robb]

Not that I can find!

Pete - Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen - this is the bit I dont like

• We will pay the reasonable cost of repair for loss or damage not exceeding £4,357 Reasonable replacement or repair may not result in the appearance and condition being the same as that prior to the claim. In the event of total loss or constructive total loss, we will pay £N,NNNN or at our option, provide a replacement boat of a similar age, size and type.

I have not yet had an answer from Topsail - they seem to be a bit cagey about the whole thile - "Its under Investigation".
I suspect that there has been a bit of a bish..... I was worried that I had misrepresented them, but I now just dont know..... Neither Topsail or Craft Insure appear to have a Delegated Authority, therefore the norm as a broker only, is that they use a standard policy - as Craft Insure does.......

I had a very good quote from JGW at an agreed value. Their quote system is brilliant - highly comprehensive plus explanations......
I suspect that I am going that way......

 

[Scubadoo]

From my GJW policy:-

A. COVER FOR THE VESSEL Subject to the Conditions Precedent, Limitations and the other terms of the Policy we shall cover you in respect of physical loss of or damage to the Vessel caused by: (i) accidents (including fire, explosion, collision, stranding, grounding and heavy weather); ii. Latent Defect in the Vessel for which purpose corrosion (including electrolytic or galvanic) or rust or oxidation not discoverable by the exercise of reasonable care or where the corroded or rusted item has been inspected, maintained, serviced or replaced in accordance with the manufacturer’s, supplier’s or other recommendation is considered a Latent Defect

Hi Cathy, As I said I don't think you will be covered if not a total loss of the vessel i.e. caused by galvanic or electrolysis. Latent defect in my opinion is unlikely to be associated to galvanic or electrolysis, this is based on my own experience on a claim with GJW several years ago which was rejected. In my case I suffered galvanic/electrolysis due to no fault with the boat but external factors in the marina which I couldn't easily provide evidence, bearing in mind I had been at the same berth for many years and my anodes had the same depletion rate (less 50%) every year except this one year where an almost total lost of anode protection was experienced. After that experience with GJW I have been very cautious about their policy wording and eventually moved to Y following JFM comments on this subject. If my Y renewal premiums are hiked up later this year, I'll probably look for another insurer with an Amlin policy.

 

[Scubadoo]

Pete - Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen - this is the bit I dont like

• We will pay the reasonable cost of repair for loss or damage not exceeding £4,357 Reasonable replacement or repair may not result in the appearance and condition being the same as that prior to the claim. In the event of total loss or constructive total loss, we will pay £N,NNNN or at our option, provide a replacement boat of a similar age, size and type.

I have not yet had an answer from Topsail - they seem to be a bit cagey about the whole thile - "Its under Investigation".
I suspect that there has been a bit of a bish..... I was worried that I had misrepresented them, but I now just dont know..... Neither Topsail or Craft Insure appear to have a Delegated Authority, therefore the norm as a broker only, is that they use a standard policy - as Craft Insure does.......

I had a very good quote from JGW at an agreed value. Their quote system is brilliant - highly comprehensive plus explanations......
I suspect that I am going that way......

I thought GJW had the same wording "replacement boat of a similar age..." irrespective of agreed value, at the time I queried this and had an email confirming something along the lines it is being removed from the policy (that was 2019), has it been removed?

 

[DavidJ]

So with "replacement boat of a similar age..."
To replace my boat in Spain would they find one in the UK and ship and pay EU VAT to my berth in Spain?????

 

[Chris_Robb]

I thought GJW had the same wording "replacement boat of a similar age..." irrespective of agreed value, at the time I queried this and had an email confirming something along the lines it is being removed from the policy (that was 2019), has it been removed?

Certainly it has been removed - I would not entertain it other wise!

 

[Chris_Robb]

So with "replacement boat of a similar age..."
To replace my boat in Spain would they find one in the UK and ship and pay EU VAT to my berth in Spain?????

Its such a wooly clause - and is effectively a market value clause - but saying at their option - you have NO certainty.
Being in a hotter climate - I bet you have done significant additions to your boat - my Weesterly I cut out the whole fridge and put in a self designed Fridge Freezer. To get that done professionally would be very costly. Then Epaxy bottom, Add arch and wind gen and solar pannels, Alternator booster, extra battery positions - chuck out CQR plus by 100 m 8mm chain - replace windlass with decent one, Holding Tanks, Extra Fresh water tank, Sails - almost always shot with baggy jib and main causing furling problems - so replace with Vectron.... lasts much longer.... The list goes on

Plus _ i have a full maintenance record every year showing checks on everything... Will I find another thats been treated in the same way - I might if I am lucky! So hence the importance of a proper agreed value - you should justify why you place that value.... Y yachts just accepted the value from Nav and Gen - which was what I had put in 15 years earlier - now that is bad underwriting..... Nav and Gens policy is written to compensate for bad underwriting...... ie aim to fail and then cheat!

 

[Chris_Robb]

Hi Cathy, As I said I don't think you will be covered if not a total loss of the vessel i.e. caused by galvanic or electrolysis. Latent defect in my opinion is unlikely to be associated to galvanic or electrolysis, this is based on my own experience on a claim with GJW several years ago which was rejected. In my case I suffered galvanic/electrolysis due to no fault with the boat but external factors in the marina which I couldn't easily provide evidence, bearing in mind I had been at the same berth for many years and my anodes had the same depletion rate (less 50%) every year except this one year where an almost total lost of anode protection was experienced. After that experience with GJW I have been very cautious about their policy wording and eventually moved to Y following JFM comments on this subject. If my Y renewal premiums are hiked up later this year, I'll probably look for another insurer with an Amlin policy.

Scubado, I understand where the insurers are coming from, as they have faced countless claims for total loss due to a single skin fitting failing. Did you have a sinking? or just water damage? If you have records you could possibly have proved that this was a sudden change. Its not just Marina electrics that are the prolem, but also a nearby yachts leaking electricity like a sieve!
This started when the RCD came out and specified a type of brass/bronze for seacocks. In the few years after that there were countless claims - including my Uncles 2 year old Ben 4.77. The engine seacosk just fell off when I was closing it - luckily I just rammed a peg in (sensible attached to each cock). It turned out that the RCD specified the wrong material. Even Halberg had the problem!
Now they expect a proper inspection at least every year, exercising each cock, and you will need a record to prove it. In the past I have scraped the external flange looking for pink copper, and scraped and tapped the inside - valve and stem. A dull sound is a worry. Also vital to check pipe fitting - which should be double clamped and turnied off when you leave a vessel - except of course cockpit drains.

I no not think that Latent defect has anything to do with this, as it really comes under YOUR duty as a yacht owner to maintain your yacht in a seaworthy condition. For all our sakes and premiums, I welcome pressure by the insurers to teach owners risk management!

 

[PlanB]

Some years ago, a neighbouring boat nearly sank when corroded anode bolts failed, leading to water ingress. There was considerable interior damage, including to wood floors and fittings. Despite proof of regular maintenance, the insurers (Saga) rejected the claim. Following involvement of a marine legal surveyor, who proved that the bolts were faulty, and a court case, they were forced to pay.

 

[TwoHooter]

therefore the norm as a broker only, is that they use a standard policy

Yes.
I've said this before but I think it bears repetition.
I don't think there are any insurance brokers in the small recreational boat business. All we have are sales outlets who sell pre-pack policies.
It's the same for most consumer insurance. The old-fashioned insurance broker who would ascertain their client's needs and trawl through the underwriting market to find the best combination of cover, premium, and financial strength of the underwriter is pretty much a thing of the past. I use one of the few remaining independent brokers for residential and commercial properties and motor insurance but I suspect they are gradually slipping into the same syndrome of just selling one-size-fits-all policies. They don't any longer give me a list of policies and their recommendation, they just say 'Here's your renewal'.
My personal view is that the premium should be the last thing anyone thinks about when buying insurance. What you are buying is cover for when things go wrong. Decide what cover you need, find a policy (if you can) which provides that cover, then pay what it costs.
I have yet to find cover which doesn't include the caveat that restoration after damage does not guarantee the cosmetic appearance. On the Nordhavn Owners Group there was recently a very sad thread about a multi-million dollar Nordhavn that was damaged when a large tender broke free from a superyacht in an anchorage and scraped right down one side, gouging chunks out of the gelcoat. The underwriter's loss adjuster (an ordinary boat surveyor) refused to sanction anything other than fill with fresh gelcoat which wasn't well colour-matched. The owner challenged this and lost. He paid himself for a complete paint job of the entire hull to get the appearance right, sold the boat, and gave up boating.

 

[petem]

Pete - Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen - this is the bit I dont like

• We will pay the reasonable cost of repair for loss or damage not exceeding £4,357 Reasonable replacement or repair may not result in the appearance and condition being the same as that prior to the claim. In the event of total loss or constructive total loss, we will pay £N,NNNN or at our option, provide a replacement boat of a similar age, size and type.

I have not yet had an answer from Topsail - they seem to be a bit cagey about the whole thile - "Its under Investigation".
I suspect that there has been a bit of a bish..... I was worried that I had misrepresented them, but I now just dont know..... Neither Topsail or Craft Insure appear to have a Delegated Authority, therefore the norm as a broker only, is that they use a standard policy - as Craft Insure does.......

I had a very good quote from JGW at an agreed value. Their quote system is brilliant - highly comprehensive plus explanations......
I suspect that I am going that way......

Rob,

Regarding "Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen" I don't believe this is the case.

I emailed Topsail yesterday and this is my email and their reply....

----------------------

My email

Are you following this thread? https://forums.ybw.com/index.php?threads/any-insurance-recommendations-not-y-insurance.546787/page-5

There seems to be a couple of observations that don’t feel correct to me.

1. That people aren’t given the policy terms that are published on your website and are given standard N&G terms instead.
2. That your policies aren’t based on an agreed value where the insured gets the full sum assured in the event of a total loss. This statement on your website is confusing….

https://www.topsailinsurance.com/boat-insurance/motorboat-insurance.html (“Your motorboat policy will be issued on an agreed value basis, so in the event of a claim you will be paid out up to what you insured the vessel for.”). The words “up to” render this statement rather meaningless. In what circumstances would someone not receive their sum assured?

Their reply

Unfortunately there isn’t a one size fits all answer to point (1) but I’ll attempt to clarify the wordings that the Y Yacht client base may be offered at renewal although I would ask you to bear in mind that these are generalisations and each Insured persons requirements will be reviewed on an individual basis at renewal.

The majority of UK customers will be offered a renewal option that will be based on the existing Topsail policy wording which is underwritten by Navigators and General (Zurich). This is structurally and coverage wise very similar to the previous Y Yacht wording as both evolved from the original Underwriters MS Amlin.

Customers with EU vessels will be routed through Y Yacht France due to the loss of passporting rights for UK Insurers / Brokers from 1st Jan this year. They will be provided a wording from MS Amlin’s European based Insurer AISE. Again this wording will be similar in terms of structure and coverage.

There will be another segment of customers that fall outside of these two options. In these cases we will act purely as a broker and seek to obtain quotations from a number of Insurers. Currently these include Navigators and General (part of Zurich Group) but on their own policy wording, Global Yacht Cover who provide policies underwritten by Munich Re: and again MS Amlin. We will potentially bring other options on stream in the next few months.

With regards your point (2) policies from all sources above are based on Agreed Value principles. We have had a recent unfortunate example where our clients yacht was lost during a particular violent storm whilst on a mooring and was a Total Loss. Whilst I hope you understand I can’t supply specifics of this case for the forum without the permission of this client I am quite happy to state for the record that this claim was settled based on the Topsail policy wording for the full sum insured amount which was several hundred thousands of pounds.

Finally I must thank you for drawing my attention to the statement on our website. I will endeavour to get this amended within the next few days as I agree it is potentially misleading.

I trust this answers the queries raised but I remain more than happy to discuss further with you if necessary.

----------------------

Pete

 

[petem]

So I signed up with Craftinsure, and I don't want to be negative about it yet, I suspect they will be able to resolve the issue I have but what are your opinions. My boat is based in Valencia, Spain. The main policy they have sent me (in English) has a "You have agreed: " section and in that section it states "The permanent home mooring of “Dune” is in the United Kingdom.". Along with this policy they have provided an endorsement document (in Spanish) that confirms I am insured on that boat in the Med, it doesn't however mention the boat is permanently based in Spain. I am feeling very uncomfortable that the main policy is factually incorrect. They have told me this is all fine, the endorsement is read in conjunction with the main policy but it still doesn't feel right to me that from day 1 I have a document that is not a valid account of the situation. Your opinions please?

I have asked them I need something else in writing, ideally the main policy needs amending and I am waiting to hear back. My initial request for them to amend the main policy I was told they couldn't do that for security reasons.

I will see what they come back with tomorrow and report back.

Sounds like a load of bullshit that they're giving you. The policy should state the marina where you boat is based, no ifs, no buts.

 

[petem]

Well i had a claim that fell exactly into this category ie either a full write off or rebuild. insurer was Amlins, ie same policy as Y uses. It became very clear going through the process that this was not a simple case of them simply paying out the insured value or the estimated repair. One of the issues insurers face is over insured boats ie you insure at say 350k but replacement is 300k. In my view you would be paid out 300k not 350k. There would at least be an arm wrestle. Having gone through this experience - and the numbers were not small - I would make a number of observations. First, the only person that matters to you is the loss adjuster. Secondly they will check every record of servicing, fire regulation safety ie are you up to speed etc and your licence to drive the boat. Record keeping is absolutely critical and your ability to respond quickly to requests makes a difference. Finally the quality of your insurer is key. IMHO Amlins were outstanding in my case. I am sure the answer was YES as you said, however the reality is that they are not just going to hand over X amount and let you shop around. That may be what happens but it will never be as simple as this. And i hope that no one ever has to go through what I had to. Incidentally my loss adjuster - who was awesome btw - said 70% of what he dealt with were claims to try and get money from the insurer ie torch the boat because they couldn’t sell or paint scrape marks on the sides to try to get something. I was staggered.

With 'Y' there are some specific obligations around fire extinguishers (make sure they are "all properly installed and maintained") you simply have to "maintain the Vessel for the use intended" which I hope we all do regardless of insurance.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Regarding "Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen" I don't believe this is the case.

I just cut out bit of the policy which is navigators standard, see above.

 

[dune16]

Sadly they were unwilling to adjust the main policy, they said they have done it this way for people using boats outside of the normal geographical scope for years with no issues. I'm afraid I'm not willing to risk it so have asked them to cancel and refund the policy. Hopefully they won't (can't?) refuse as I only signed up yesterday!

 

[petem]

Regarding "Craft Insure Policy is the standard Nav and Gen" I don't believe this is the case.

I just cut out bit of the policy which is navigators standard, see above.

Chris, thanks but I'm not going to be convinced until you or somebody else sends me a link to the CraftInsure Motorboat policy so that I can compare it back to back with the Navigators and General one.

 

[DavidJ]

Sadly they were unwilling to adjust the main policy, they said they have done it this way for people using boats outside of the normal geographical scope for years with no issues. I'm afraid I'm not willing to risk it so have asked them to cancel and refund the policy. Hopefully they won't (can't?) refuse as I only signed up yesterday!

They probably don’t realise they have just lost maybe hundreds of potential customers who, like me, are looking around for alternatives to Y

 

[Chris_Robb]

Chris, thanks but I'm not going to be convinced until you or somebody else sends me a link to the CraftInsure Motorboat policy so that I can compare it back to back with the Navigators and General one.

Pete, the policy is on their website. That bit was cut from it.

Topsail, never actually confirmed the alternative boat issue, they just gave an example of a payout, which does not answer the question.

 

[DavidJ]

Pete, the policy is on their website. That bit was cut from it.

Topsail, never actually confirmed the alternative boat issue, they just gave an example of a payout, which does not answer the question.

Yes similar Topsail rhetoric to my question on gradual deterioration and as Hurricane pointed out referencing JFM “it is the ACTUAL words that matter”

 

[petem]

cruising yacht insurance policy

Near the bottom

Any idea how I access the Motorboat versions from this page - motorboat insurance tidal ?