Anti-social wash

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

I've yet to see a sensible posting that claims that any of the wash etc is anything but lack of appreciation (ignorance is too pejorative) of the problem of wash. Don't need a licence, just someone to takem out and about and say look, see him in that lickle boat ? ... now watch behind, watch, watch see? If they want to sloosh some one they still wil, but most of it seems to be lack of apprec. of prob for small and sailyboats- as Nick R admitted at the start of thread.

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

Oh dear - can we ever solve this divide without taking our engines out and installing a mast? I am in 100% agreement with anyone [regardless of boat] in a river, marina, etc but once out in the sea then I really do think a person is being petty to expect a boat travelling at 20 knots+ and hence planing and so not making max wash to eliminate the wash by coming off the plane and down to 6 knots to make the wash less than it was because there is another boat which may get rocked about a bit ... at sea?

We are spoilt for choice in The Solent area for quiet rivers to moor in and enjoy a bit of calm water so why anchor in bays which are open to the sea and expect calm? You clearly were not around the area when the Thoresen Car Ferries used to operate from Southampton if you want to see a big wash! Or the older Isle of Wight ferries? Now they are all cats the wash is not that bad?

Let's please try and see this from both sides and accept our differences and compromise?

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

As the originator of this thread, I feel entitled to further comment. I think that it is absolutely right that in all bar a very small minority of cases, the wash problem is caused by a lack of appreciation, not ignorance or loutish behaviour.

I do not agree that the wash decreases once on the plane. On my boat which has quite rounded chines - almost a semi displacement shape - the wash is maximised once on the plane and probably peaks at about 20 knts. From there to 26knts (flat out) I can't discern much difference. I agree that in open water, it is unreasonable for a yacht to expect you to come off the plane just so he does'nt encounter a wash.

Likewise someone said that in my incident, I had a responsibility to be at sea on something which could cope. To a certain extent this is true but how would any of us feel about a drowning in these circumstances - would you be able to deal with your conscience by saying "he should'nt have been there in the first place!" - it would'nt work in my case.

Our boating pleasures whether we like it or not are not terribly environmentally friendly. Large washes are only part of it. We also use a lot of precious natural resources (oil) and belch out large volumes of noxious smoke and greenhouse gases. And then there is the question of noise pollution. I think therefore we all have a duty to minimise these effects as do manufacturers, especially engine manufacturers. Builders could do a lot about noise but there is not much profit in it - maybe the EU directive (who remembers Marian?) will make a difference. We could make sure our engines are kept serviced and as clean as possible.

Anyway I now feel so bad about being a motor boater I think I'll just pop down the hall and shoot myself - if anyone else would like the use of a loaded revolver and an empty room just let know, but fairly quickly!

Finally, on licensing, I have very mixed feelings about this. It just seems so obvious that no one should be in charge of a 40+ft boat with hundreds if not thousands of horses straining away in the engine room without some amount of basic skill. On the other hand, I accept the arguments about restriction of liberty and bureaucracy making a meal/profit of it. I do not accept the argument that runs "the driving licence does not guarantee good drivers after the test is passed" - maybe not but it does guarantee that each driver has a basic understanding of the mechanics of driving a car and road sense. Maybe there could be some form of policing which let people get on with boating but required idiots caught in the act to attend some form of compulsory training. I have not really thought through whether this would be workable.

Oh well! I'm sure that will have put you all to sleep. I'll just get Byron (see post re BSS above) to come and deflower you all with a pineapple. That should wake you up!

Nick

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Re: Agreed But..

Wow, where do I start? Lets start with the easy one " a license .... guarantees each driver has a basic understanding of the mechanics of driving a car and road sense" Have you met my wife, my mother or my sister and lets not be sexist, one of my best mates? You jest, sir, surely? Of course, it may be that there's a higher level of competence up your way but you would'nt have agreed if, like me, you'd got behind that woman driving a completely overloaded Galaxy with 3 unrestrained kids in the back and a large blue and white cross on it's backside doing 40mph in the outside lane of the M1 this morning
Wash decreasing on the plane. Partly agree on that one only to note you'd have to slow right down to make a difference. In a 40' planing boat you're making just as much wash at a high displacement speed, say 10knots, as at 30knots so there's actually not much point in coming off the plane
Actually it was me who made the comment about seaworthy craft and I stand by that. If somebody puts to sea in a craft which is going to be swamped by a 3' wake, then that's irresponsible and they could'nt really complain if they ended up as a RNLI statistic
Greenhouse gases. Motorboats account for a statistically insignificant proportion of the worlds emissions and if we all stopped boating tomorrow, we're still all going to fry in 2050 or whenever
The worst to last. Where's my Prozac. Not only licensing but, now, policing. Who pays, what laws are going to be applied, which court is going to prosecute are just some of the practical questions. But the big argument is always Boating = Freedom and there ain't much of that about
Good boating this weekend. Lets keep it the way it is

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

Maybe I can respond to a few points but I don't want to make any big issues because, if the truth is told, I sympathise with much of what you say. However:

Once your wife passed her test at least she could attempt with reasonable safety to drive the car - she could'nt do it at all before. Unfortunately many new boaters learn by their mistakes which can be annoying at one end of the scale through to fatal at the other. On the other hand -thats how I learned and fortunately I did'nt kill anyone along the way.

I guess the wash on the plane/off the plane depends on the hull shape and really fast boats - Cigarettes for example - are so much out the water at 65mph the don't make much of a wash.

I agree about people taking responsibility for being at sea in a safe boat but it would not help my conscience much if it was my wash which delivered the coupe de gras.

Finally, on greenhouse gases and conservation, etc., I agree overall we make a miniscule contribution but it is the amount if stated on a per person basis. If you are out with say the missus, in my case I am using around 12-15 gal per hour and producing a fair amount of smoke - TAMD41a's size for size the worlds smokiest engine - Volvo should be hung!. I cling to your arguments as I enjoy boating and would not want to give it up but I suspect a 'green' activist could smoke our arguments.

Anyway have a good weekend - I will be using said vessel as a cargo ship to deliver new carpets to my mother's house in Millport.

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

I'm sorry to air again but I would like to reinforce Deleted User who backed up my points ...

This licence issue - all the 'responsible' motorboaters out there have read the books, articles, charts, etc and have the 'knowledge' and we pay insurance, etc. Back to cars for a second - I heard a frighteneing stat the other day on TV which stated that 1 in 10 cars are not insured and that could also mean that the driver does not hold a licence! So you cannot assume that all drivers have had tuition! In fact several million on our roads apparently don't care anyway?

Wash - well, 'MY boat [32' 6 ton planing hull] makes less wash at 20 knots [trimmed correctly] makes less wash than she does between 8 and 12! In fact when I went through Poole Harbour at the 10k speed limit I felt guilty as that is the worst speed for my boat and I guess most other motor cruisers? So my original point was that to reduce the wash I make at 20 knots would mean slowing to below 8 knots and getting back on the plane will cost me another gulp of juice and create more harmful emissions .... I rest my case on this point!

Pollution - the major sources are road vehicles, oil refineries, fossil fuel power stations and aircraft! If you just studied Fawley as a refinery, power station and the number of tankers [road and sea] moving about and compared that to pleasure craft in 'The Solent' [say] I don't think it would refinforce your argument? Now I know some might say that as a responsible citizen of the planet we should stop any form of pollution and to a point I agree but until govts, etc encourage alternatives [rather than cash in on the demand by raising duty] do we carry on our life or compensate for them and stop using cars, boats, fossil fuel heating, electricity [the power station] and so forth ?

Can anyone provide evidence where anyone lost a life through a wash from any vessel? I would not wish to be in my dinghy at sea but if I had to be then I would aim her into any waves [I'd be more worried about natural waves].

I'm going to shut up now!

 

[Guest]

Noisy Motorboatmen

As a a sailing yachtsman I have read this thread with interest - many thoughtful, respectful and well-tempered postings which are a credit to the motor boating fraternity. I'm impressed. I also certainly respect that close quarter handling a skittish motorboat in wind and tide requires considerably more skill than a yacht with a keel.
However, I cannot get away from a niggling impression when visiting marinas that on the whole the sailing yachtsmen seem to go about their business quietly, while the motorboat people are often noisy and boisterous, creating an undesirable image. I have often wondered why this should be so until the answer hit me.
I think many motorboaters are partially deaf, or at least suffer from temporary partial deafness after a passage, due to high engine noise. Do any of you guys wear ear protection? Are there any medical studies of this? Would a factories inspector allow this level and duration of noise exposure without ear protection? I'm genuinely interested. My boat has a relatively small quiet diesel, but I am aware that if used for prolonged periods, the crew become more agitated and short-tempered both during and for some time afterward.

 

[duncan]

Re: Noisy Motorboatmen

If by noise you are referring to the 'antics' of the crews in port then I would suggest that sailing crews tend to vacate their boats (having been on board some time!) after passage and make noise in the pubs etc - gereralisation I know but enough to make a noticable difference. Motor craft tend to be designed with sufficent comfortable space in the cockpit for the total numbers on board to sit and party (make noise), unlike sailing craft.

 

[duncan]

Re: Agreed But..

I am glad you mention Poole. I often feel guilty @ 10 knots but being based at the very far end if I am against the tide it is not a question of 'a little extra' time but a lot!
My guilt tends to go away when I watch the comercial craft inc Police and PHC traveling @ 10 with their associated wakes.
I have to congratulate PHC on their sensible approach to this in general by not trying to confuse a 10 knt safety limit with a low wake issue overall - whilst the 6kt areas are quiet areas with 6kt or some such lower speed that does not create a wake.

 

[Guest]

Re: Noisy Motorboatmen

In fact, most modern motorboats are really quite quiet at both upper and lower helm positions - much quieter than down below in a yacht when the engine is running. My own boat is 12 years old and the sound levels at the lower helm are no more than inside a number 47 bus. The bark of the exhaust is what you hear and that tends to be carried well overboard/underwater, etc. so as to by more or less inaudible to the occupants of the boat but relatively loud to those in the vicinity.

If you are referring to the conduct of the the crew of a motor boat I have never noticed them to be any better or worse than their yachting cousins - in fact my experience would be that yachts rafted together will have very noisy parties and why not - we do after all go boating for fun and a few drinks after the cruise/passage etc., is only equivalent to a couple of drinks in the bar after a round of golf. Its part of the social scene.

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

To both Sea Bear and Duncan, I think the issue re the size of wake is, as I said, down to the hull shape. A pure planing hull will be at its worst just about the "hump" speed. My boat which has more a semi displacement hull definitely makes more wash at planing speeds. This is a characteristic of that sort of hull - the same would be true for most lifeboat designs (not their ribs), pilot boats and Halmatic based boats.

As far as drivers are concerned, I agree that there are loads running about without insurance and/or licences but the point is they are breaking the law and if caught they are punished (by 5 hours community service or the like!). If you are rammed whilst at anchor by someone with no previous experience or insurance, that is just an accident, they have broken no laws. I am not sure that is right and I repeat, whilst I sympathise greatly with the freedom of the seas lobby - it suits me - logic just seems to say that it is wrong to allow anyone with no prior experience (e.g. a lottery winner) just to take the helm of a 40ft boat capable of of umpteen knots.

Finally on the green issue. Motor boats just are not green and we only rationalise that by saying that there are few enough not to cause much effect - fair enough.

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: Noisy Motorboatmen

Now that I think of it, maybe sailing yachtsmen are quieter than motorboatmen when they arrive because they are just more tired. Passages take so much longer when sailing, and sailors have to work so much harder pulling and pushing things along the way.....

 

[Guest]

Re: Noisy Motorboatmen

The one's I know are never too tired for a pint or several once in port.

As for pushing and pulling - well that's your choice. On the other hand I need my lady helper to mop my fevered brow through the required effort in concentrating on keeping the boat away from the green bits on the radar and looking out for people not to annoy with my wash.

Nick

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

Evidence, not of being killed, but broken bones - will that do?

Some years back, I was a guest on Alert III, the Police patrol Launch in the Blackwater estuary. Amongst other very interesting incidents, they were called to one where a guy launching a ski boat had had his foot crushed by the boat being lifted, then crashing down on his foot. This was during the later stages of launching at an official slip. The cause? A RN-Reserve motor gun boat towing a skier IN THE 8 KNOT SPEED LIMITED AREA!!

The RNR officer was prosecuted for speeding, and not responding/keeping a listening watch on Chn 16. He had kept quiet & bu***red off.

Tha navy quite rightly handed him over. I hope that the guy with the broken foot got compensation for his loss of earnings etc.

 

[mike_kolling]

Re: Noisy Motorboatmen

The odd clattering of halliards excepted

 

[Guest]

Re: righteous yotties

But isn't part of the problem that the main transgressors don't realise the havoc they are causing. Why not include it as part of the curriculum for Coastal Skipper and ICC? Education is so much better than regulation.

Doug

 

[Guest]

Re: Noise

Depends where you are on boat. From outside to rear, boat is a right racket, but on board at speed, much quieter and can have normal level converstaion at 25knots plus.

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

I did say that one should not exceed set limits [or words to that effect?]

 

[Guest]

Re: Agreed But..

Fair comment regarding hull design - I have noticed the HM's & Pilot's Halmatic's wash and that is pretty awesome in a 32' !! So I guess this whole thread is aimed at semi-displacement cruisers and not planing cruisers then?

Mmmm - I would consider 'damaging someone's property' as breaking the law, well to not offer to pay for the damage and driving off is anyway!

I have to say again that having training, getting a licence and being regulated is no guarantee that that person will suddenly be considerate if, by nature, he's brash, arrogant and superior then he will always be like that? I'm sure someone out there could name a Yachtmaster or Coastal Skipper who takes the helm of his boat and disregards everyone else exccept of course himself?

Green Issue - well exactly, it's an issue. As I said 'we use the technology that is available and affordable and while govts get 'pocket money' from oil companies then that is the way it will stay! I'm not saying it's right but that IS the way it is? I'm convinced that we [the human race] have the technology to 'efficiently' use sea water as a fuel but with it being so readily available who would profit enough to want it to be available to all? Shame we can't put a small nuclear reactor in our boats but that's another issue .... ah well ;-)