smithy
Well-Known Member
If you live in anywhere near Inverness why don't you try Gael Force £6.95m for 10mm
Another chain question
- Thread starter Ian_Edwards
- Start date
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Thin water and I agree on many things but I'm not very enthusiastic on have two anchors set on one rode. If you have any reason you need to move quickly (a yacht ahead of you is dragging) and or the wind veers and a yacht ahead of you swings over the junction of your two rodes and there will be other situations - then you have problems. Because of the way the two rodes act and then they become one rode there is no way a yacht ahead of you will have any idea how your rodes are interconnected. He may arrive at night and conditions may change during the night.
The second factor is that if you have laid the first rode it is very difficult to lift that rode, its heavy, to allow you to connect a second rode. 6mm might be satisfactory but 8mm is almost impossible. If it were the end of a rode you might lift it - but picking it up in the middle is a Herculean task. I suspect 10mm would be impossible. You can, of course, retreive the first rode until you reach the point at which you want to attach the second rode - but its now getting difficult and a bit of a faff. I'd not want to join 2 rodes from a dinghy.
Anchoring has to be simple and as risk free as possible - or you will not do it.
The only reason to have two rodes is to control or manage a veering wind. Thinwater's solution will not manage veering as well as two rode - as you will still veer on the single/common rode. If you are afraid your anchor will drag in a steady wind - then you have the wrong ground tackle. Change the ground tackle - do not overcomplicate and set a second anchor. If the holding is mud and poor - set your Fortress. If there is weed - move. If you are suffering snatch loads, deploy more chain or use a better snubber. If there is no room aft to deploy more chain - again set a better snubber, from the transom along the side deck - and then you do not need to drop back as you have a deck length snubber - at least.
If you deploy two separate rodes you can deploy one rode conventionally using your windlass. The yacht is now secure. You can leave your yacht safely and deploy your second rode from a dinghy, easier if the second anchor is aluminium and the rode mixed (so lighter). The two rodes can be retrieved from the yacht simply by motoring forward slowly retrieving all chain and simultaneously taking in the second rode. You do not need to worry about disconnecting the two rode - they do not join - and you can lift the primary anchor keeping the second rode cleated to a bow cleat - sufficient slack but it does not foul the prop.
It all has to be simple.
Jonathan
geem
Well-Known Member
I can see a time when connecting as a single rode is useful and I have done it once. We were in a very busy anchorage. Lots of ribs running about quite close to us prior to the blow arriving. Setting up my rode set anchor meant hauling rode in and getting the anchor set. As we rode to the line it would break surface for quite a long way causing me some concern that a passing dinghy would hit it. I shackled the line through the main chain and let more chain out. This kept more of the rode below the surface apart from in the larger gusts. It wasn't ideal as I couldn't adjust the rode and I have never done it since but it alleviated some concern. It was an unusual situation in an anchorage with way too many boat for my liking but we didn't have many options at the time. In the end the big blow gave us no more than 40kts. Less than predicted
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
At £700 for galvanising after 5 years why not consider the stainless steel chains available? What would the payback be?
Neeves
Well-Known Member
You illustrate and underline - there is no one right, nor one wrong, answer. If it works once or 100 times - its right for the occasion(s).
We need the exceptions and the common ways in our mental tool box.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
If I was buying chain now in anticipation of owning the boat for 20 years I would most definitely be buying Cromox, assuming I had the spare cash.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I don't nor didn't have the foresight to look forward to owning the same yacht for 20 years, we are now at 20+ years. I certainly would not have had the foresight to option 6mm Cromox and might be regretting having bought 8mm when 6mm would had been more than adequate.
I'd want to match up chain and anchor, maybe even windlass (Lighthouse?) - which increases the cost.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Yes, it's always easier with hindsight. Having always used 8 mm galvanised since buying the boat in 1994 I have certainly spent the cost of Cromox on replacement chain and regalvanising. At that time the suggestion of going to 6 mm would have been unthinkable, even though at grade 50 or 60 it would have been sufficient. I have bought two windlasses in that time, so not really an issue.
Separate matter, we just had Izi on board bringing me a Boomerang. We sail tomorrow, so looking forward to trying it. Very interesting man.
burgundyben
Well-Known Member
Very useful. I'm about to do a fitout, I'll buy Cromox chain.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
If you can stomach the price it will outlive you. If you can down size it will obviously be cheaper but you will need a new windlass or new gypsy - and a decent snubber.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I'll be interested in your comment on the Boomerang, short arm forward. Its designed round use of 2 x 3/8th" shackles (bow through the Boomerang slot) so should fit your 8mm chain with ease. I modified the design for my Boomerang and use Omega links - which are lower profile that 3/8th" shackles. Finding Omegas that are galvanised is a challenge.
A few links, an odd number, between boomerang and anchor is recommended - some very intelligent person made that recommendation (nothing to do with me).
. It depends where your windlass is and how long your anchor shank might be - but more links the better. When the boomerang self rights the anchor - the anchor then swings, like a pendulum, more links gives the anchor time to settle down. When you have connected it all up its worth sitting on the bow and retrieving the anchor by hand, just drop the anchor a few metres and then haul up - and you will see how the boomerang works (and find out if you have connected it properly). You and I have the same windlass - which is so fast on retrieval that the self righting is so quick you cannot see what is happening. I made a vid of the boomerang in action and had to make it with hand retrieval so that the concept could actually be seen. You should have borrowed a Viking anchor - they are really good - and you could fit one (unlike us where the roll bar denies application). His snubber hook is also a neat piece of design and the bridle plate - even better He is interesting and good company - its fascinating that it took someone with out an investment in anchors to realise the savings in weight that could be made by use of HT steels. The move he has made and is making should have been done by Manson or Lewmar. The Viking anchor is almost as light as a Fortress. He had the ideas -and enough confidence to take the concept to market. He has two battles - one overcoming the idea that anchors have to be heavy and two Putin. However Putin forced a re-think on location and this might result in a better anchor (I'm reticent on this latter - but it should be another eye opener).
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Yes, he talked us through all the development stages, although no detail on the latest anchor. Very interesting discussion and he is clearly grateful for your considerable input.I'll be interested in your comment on the Boomerang, short arm forward. Its designed round use of 2 x 3/8th" shackles (bow through the Boomerang slot) so should fit your 8mm chain with ease. I modified the design for my Boomerang and use Omega links - which are lower profile that 3/8th" shackles. Finding Omegas that are galvanised is a challenge.
View attachment 142748
A few links, an odd number, between boomerang and anchor is recommended - some very intelligent person made that recommendation (nothing to do with me).
He is interesting and good company - its fascinating that it took someone with out an investment in anchors to realise the savings in weight that could be made by use of HT steels. The move he has made and is making should have been done by Manson or Lewmar. The Viking anchor is almost as light as a Fortress. He had the ideas -and enough confidence to take the concept to market. He has two battles - one overcoming the idea that anchors have to be heavy and two Putin. However Putin forced a re-think on location and this might result in a better anchor (I'm reticent on this latter - but it should be another eye opener).
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I'm not into brownie points - but thanks. I wish to have had the opportunity to talk with like minded people - ground tackle is not very popular as a topic here. Its a long way to go from here to the Med for and evening chin wag.
There is no point in knowledge if you do not share it - and you obviously agree as you have commanding web site.
Jonathan
Neeves
Well-Known Member
Vyv,
If I recall correctly you have a slotted bow roller. It depends on the size of the slot, width and depth, and thickness of the plate from which the boomerang is made but the Boomerang may fall into the slot and not articulate, roll over, as designed. I simply don't have a fix for this. If you make the Boomerang from thicker plate the Boomerang then becomes more of a hinderance to the setting of the anchor.
I forgot to mention when the Boomerang is installed correctly and under tension it should lie vertically, not on its side. When you set your anchor it will then lie in the same orientation and be forced into the seabed in a vertical aspect (offering a little extra resistance to veering).
Jonathan
I hope you are not disappointed.
Jonathan
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Yes this possible glitch had occurred to me. We are on passage at the moment aiming to round Cape Malea while the lighter weather lasts. After that we have time to experiment.
Thanks.
Poey50
Well-Known Member
Our boomerang (bought from Viking Anchors) on a non-slotted roller completely sorted out the problem of our Spade coming up the wrong way round. Previously it seemed to be wrong more than 50% of the time, which for a long while I put down to simple paranoia. Then I realised that the water flow with the boat moving forwards was reversing an otherwise good position because the shape of the flukes favoured tip end forwards. The swivel, which was put on to help solve the issue, was actually a co-conspirator in the problem making it easier for the Spade to turn away. Once boomerang replaced swivel all was good.
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psand
New Member
Does anyone know where you can buy the Viking Boomerang? They are out of stock on their website.
thinwater
Well-Known Member
One disadvantage, often completely fatal, of setting two rodes with chain all the way back into the locker, is that it is NOT simple to recover if the boat has done a 360 in the night. The only way to leave quickly is to cut one chain. Therefore, in my home waters, where tidal changes are regular, setting two separate rodes is extremely unpopular. Watching the hours-long circus as they try to untangle twisted chains is amusing.
With the one-rode method, if you think it is possible you might need to leave in a hurry, combine them with a soft shackle or sling that you can cut, leaving one anchor. But in fact, they are NOT more trouble to recover:
There is no reason to connect the rodes from a dinghy or to take one anchor out in a dinghy. Sometimes it's easier, other times not. Same with either method. Most often I would do it that way if the weather was currently calm, but a big storm was expected from another direction. Then it would be easier that moving the boat around. I've probably got the dinghy out anyway, and the secondary anchor is stored at the stern, where it is easy to load into a dinghy on davits.
I generally do not have a chain rode on the secondary (typically a little chain--the bulk is polyester or Dyneema). It's easier to handle, there is no chafe with a V-anchor because the rodes are not moving on the bottom, and it is a mud technique, not used in coral or rocks. So the secondary rode is light and easy to handle. I hate chain in the dinghy.
I've done this many dozens of times. I developed this method because it works much better here, in the soft mud here. Somewhere else is different.
With the one-rode method, if you think it is possible you might need to leave in a hurry, combine them with a soft shackle or sling that you can cut, leaving one anchor. But in fact, they are NOT more trouble to recover:
- Pull up to the join. Attach an extension to the eye at the end of the secondar rode and cut the join if you cannot free it. It is just a sling. I've never had to, but a sweep of the knife would do it. If you are afraid you cannot pull up near the join because of the weight and angle, use longer rodes. It should not be hard to lift the rodes (the engine is taking the wind load) with a windlass. It's never been a challenge. Remember, most likely the load will be on only one rode, since the wind generally shifts. The other will be slack. Now you have two anchors on two rodes.
- Recover which ever is easier.
- Recover the other. They will NOT be tangled around each other.
There is no reason to connect the rodes from a dinghy or to take one anchor out in a dinghy. Sometimes it's easier, other times not. Same with either method. Most often I would do it that way if the weather was currently calm, but a big storm was expected from another direction. Then it would be easier that moving the boat around. I've probably got the dinghy out anyway, and the secondary anchor is stored at the stern, where it is easy to load into a dinghy on davits.
I generally do not have a chain rode on the secondary (typically a little chain--the bulk is polyester or Dyneema). It's easier to handle, there is no chafe with a V-anchor because the rodes are not moving on the bottom, and it is a mud technique, not used in coral or rocks. So the secondary rode is light and easy to handle. I hate chain in the dinghy.
I've done this many dozens of times. I developed this method because it works much better here, in the soft mud here. Somewhere else is different.
FWB
N/A
thinwater
Well-Known Member
Yup, obvious school trig. Also in every rigging handbook.
However, it leaves out several very important factors specific to anchoring:
- The anchor is no longer wiggled when the boat yaws. This can increase holding 15-50%, depending on the yaw angle and whether the chain is well-burried.
- Yawing is reduced or nearly eliminated. Yawing can increase rode tension from 20-100%, depending on the yaw angle.
- These effects are additive.
- The anchor will not pull out and require a full reset with a 180 degree reversal due to tide or weather change. Anchors reset by themselves at least 90% of the time ... but not 100%.
In most cases it is not nearly so bad, but most of the time the increase in holding is considerable. But it is a hassle with some important complications.
Normally the
