'anchors , Insurers and the courts

[DAKA]

The first Anchor incident

It was a stunning sunny day in August so we decided to anchor in Priory Bay ( East Isle of Wight ).

We arrived before lunch , checked the depth, predicted fall and rise and let out 4 x depth of chain , hoisted the Anchor Ball (as you do) and went ashore to set up the BBQ / Beach Bar .
At that point there were no other boats anchored within ½ cable of us.




At about 15:00 we decided it was time to return to the boat to shower and find a berth for the night .



As we approached our boat we saw a Galeon sports boat had hooked up our anchor chain and was still winching in their chain colliding with us numerous times.
They winched in their chain until their their anchor roller hit our stern knocking chunks of fiberglass out and their bow rail hit our davit and bent it, they continued to winch in scratching all down the side of our boat.
.



I asked him to release his chain and instead of letting it go he let about 10 m out which allowed me to use my tender to release his anchor from our chain .



He had winched it so tight that the anchor had ridden all the way up our chain so that his anchor was clear of the water and visible.



The second anchor incident

I now had the anchor in my tender with the chain over my legs ready to drop it safely at our stern however he decided it was a good idea to winch his chain in and start towing me backwards with my legs trapped under the chain.



My crew screamed at him to stop winching me in and let 10 m out , at which point I powered astern in the tender and anchored him safely 20 m astern of our boat



I went aboard his boat and took his insurance details , it was a new boat to him and he said he didn't have any anchoring experience as he had previously owned RIBs



Just before we left I spoke briefly to a boat anchored close by to exchange tel numbers in case the third party insurers didn't cooperate



The Third Party's Insurers



I contacted his insurers and presented them with a comprehensive account / witness details along with an estimate for polishing the scratches , repairs to the stern and straightening the davits



The Third Party's Insurers response



“I can confirm that our enquiries are now complete. In an incident of this nature, the burden of proof lies with you to show that our assured has acted negligently. We have been provided with no evidence to suggest that this is the case and therefore cannot accept liability in this instance”







Witness

I contacted the witness for a written statement and this is where my luck changed , on receipt of the statement it was clear he wasn't just a witness, he was in fact an expert witness being a qualified power boat instructor .



The Courts



I issued proceedings on line “Money Claim on Line” MCOL against the anchor boat owner for damage caused during the collisions .



Once the anchor boat owner received the court papers they were handed to the Third Party Insurers and they initially offered me a conditional offer which I refused , they threatened that if I didn't accept it the courts would make me pay all costs including the third party . I said that IU was happy to risk this and the judge would more likely take the view that to stop the court action all they had to do was pay the itemised damages.

Insurers agreed to settle the damages including the court fee and actually included an extra amount that wasn't included in the MCOL for the salvage operation that followed .



The legal system for pleasure boaters



Alright I got paid eventually but I am not sure that MCOL would have helped at all as I don't think that English Law applies to this situation ?

Would this incident have needed to be heard by the high court under maritime law ?



If so it effectively means that any dodgy insurance company can avoid Third Party claims knowing that now one will afford to be able to pursue a claim for damages ?







Lessons to learn



For Cheapskates

If you don't want the embarrassment of having court papers landing on your doorstep and or CCJ against your name/household then choose a long established quality insurer like Haven Knox Johnston or Navigators & General .



For anchor dummies

Get some professional tuition.

Learn how to anchor in a safe place and check it is set

If you get hooked up just tie a fender to the end of the chain and let the chain go



For us all

If an anchor gets too close its a lot easier to move even if you were there first

Be wary of any questionable boat marks (edited following Alan's post) - greater chance the skipper is inexperienced / clueless .

Photographs and witnesses are essential following any incident ( by fluke I had taken a photo of the bay which showed our boat anchored with no other boats close by (we were there first).

 

[markc]

Thanks for sharing. So, was it the case that the boat owner denied any of it ever happening when asked by his insurers?

 

[Portofino]

Who where your underwriters and the other guys ?

What prevented you from using your own ins Co ? Did you inform them @ any stage ?

Leaving your boat unattended @ anchor is a moot point on this form .There are contrasting opinions of cover , the nitty gritty .

Thx for posting .

 

[DAKA]

Thanks for sharing. So, was it the case that the boat owner denied any of it ever happening when asked by his insurers?

No I dont think that is the case , so far I have only posted facts as I know and I dont have access to the claim form that he submitted.
The TP Insurers knew about the incident , so he had to have given an account .

 

[DAKA]

Who where your underwriters and the other guys ?

I claimed directly off the TP Insurers.

My Insurers didnt do anything wrong at all.

I am not sure how I stand on the forum for mentioning the TP insurers.

 

[Portofino]

I claimed directly off the TP Insurers.

My Insurers didnt do anything wrong at all.

I am not sure how I stand on the forum for mentioning the TP insurers.

Ok.I get the personal anonymity kind of but you mention others in general in your “ lessons learned “ post .So be it .

According to many on here = Full comp is full full comp and maybe some £50 K worth of “ free “ legal cover commonly tossed in theses day should have chased this it for you .If you had contacted them ? BTW I thought ( happily stand corrected ) you suppose to contact / inform your own insurance Co in the event of an accident even if it’s not your fault .Isn’ it actually a T+C ?

 

[DAKA]

Leaving your boat unattended @ anchor is a moot point on this form .There are contrasting opinions of cover , the nitty gritty .

I don't think our boat was ever unattended , we were sat on the beach having a BBQ etc , our boat was the focal point for the duration other than the odd swim.

My insurance covers the boat while unattended anyway except while anchored on an exposed beach , I went to the trouble to obtain a definition of ' exposed beach ' which wasn't easy to follow and it was linked to location and season.

The damaged was caused through the anchor winching in.

 

[DAKA]

Ok.I get the personal anonymity kind of but you mention others in general in your “ lessons learned “ post .So be it .

I used to own an Insurance brokerage , we had one of the largest pleasure boat accounts in the area.
I used to deal with Haven Knox and Navigators & General
I have handled a fair few marine claims including damage caused to TP boats through negligence .
The insurers I dealt with used to pay fairly without trying to wriggle out of paying any which way they could .
Hence I feel comfortable to mention choosing a quality insurer of high repute may avoid boat owners hassle.

 

[alandalus11]

Be wary of any questionable boat marks ( Galeon, Bayliner, Bavia) and sports boats - greater chance the skipper is inexperienced / clueless .

So that probably accounts for a vast majority on here then???? Bit of a sweeping statement and probably not justified in my view . So are you saying that driving one make of boat makes you more experienced than someone driving another. I was quite sympathetic with your situation until the end.

 

[oldgit]

Before this gets pulled..........................
"Be wary of any questionable boat marks ( Galeon, Bayliner, Bavia) and sports boats - greater chance the skipper is inexperienced / clueless "
Without wishing to provoke debate.
Some might observe that many start their boating careers with an urge to own the above, those who stay the course and through experience do tend to finish up with a Flybridge. ?
5-4-3-2-?

 

[DAKA]

So that probably accounts for a vast majority on here then???? Bit of a sweeping statement and probably not justified in my view . So are you saying that driving one make of boat makes you more experienced than someone driving another. I was quite sympathetic with your situation until the end.

I used to post on here and anyone that remembers me will know it was just an attempt to add a bit of humor , I stopped short of including Cranchi, McGreggor and Sealine

 

[alandalus11]

A some also stay the course and stay with sport cruisers or the named brands mentioned but get larger boats. Doesn't mean they are not experienced.

 

[oldgit]

I used to post on here and anyone that remembers me will know it was just an attempt to add a bit of humor , I stopped short of including Cranchi, McGreggor and Sealine

Any views on Mercruisers in Sealines, just out of interest ?

 

[Whaup367]

At the risk of going off-topic: I'm a bit bemused by the comment from the TP that "...he didn't have any anchoring experience as he had previously owned RIBs ..."

Is this normal? Virtually all the ribs I've used have had anchors and they were regularly deployed. Mostly this would have been as part of safety cover at dinghy events, I would guess that fishermen and divers would often anchor, too. Is it common that people who've owned one or more ribs would not have anchored them?

 

[RupertW]

The first Anchor incident

It was a stunning sunny day in August so we decided to anchor in Priory Bay ( East Isle of Wight ).

We arrived before lunch , checked the depth, predicted fall and rise and let out 4 x depth of chain , hoisted the Anchor Ball (as you do) and went ashore to set up the BBQ / Beach Bar .
At that point there were no other boats anchored within ½ cable of us.




At about 15:00 we decided it was time to return to the boat to shower and find a berth for the night .



As we approached our boat we saw a Galeon sports boat had hooked up our anchor chain and was still winching in their chain colliding with us numerous times.
They winched in their chain until their their anchor roller hit our stern knocking chunks of fiberglass out and their bow rail hit our davit and bent it, they continued to winch in scratching all down the side of our boat.
.



I asked him to release his chain and instead of letting it go he let about 10 m out which allowed me to use my tender to release his anchor from our chain .



He had winched it so tight that the anchor had ridden all the way up our chain so that his anchor was clear of the water and visible.



The second anchor incident

I now had the anchor in my tender with the chain over my legs ready to drop it safely at our stern however he decided it was a good idea to winch his chain in and start towing me backwards with my legs trapped under the chain.



My crew screamed at him to stop winching me in and let 10 m out , at which point I powered astern in the tender and anchored him safely 20 m astern of our boat



I went aboard his boat and took his insurance details , it was a new boat to him and he said he didn't have any anchoring experience as he had previously owned RIBs



Just before we left I spoke briefly to a boat anchored close by to exchange tel numbers in case the third party insurers didn't cooperate



The Third Party's Insurers



I contacted his insurers and presented them with a comprehensive account / witness details along with an estimate for polishing the scratches , repairs to the stern and straightening the davits



The Third Party's Insurers response



“I can confirm that our enquiries are now complete. In an incident of this nature, the burden of proof lies with you to show that our assured has acted negligently. We have been provided with no evidence to suggest that this is the case and therefore cannot accept liability in this instance”







Witness

I contacted the witness for a written statement and this is where my luck changed , on receipt of the statement it was clear he wasn't just a witness, he was in fact an expert witness being a qualified power boat instructor .



The Courts



I issued proceedings on line “Money Claim on Line” MCOL against the anchor boat owner for damage caused during the collisions .



Once the anchor boat owner received the court papers they were handed to the Third Party Insurers and they initially offered me a conditional offer which I refused , they threatened that if I didn't accept it the courts would make me pay all costs including the third party . I said that IU was happy to risk this and the judge would more likely take the view that to stop the court action all they had to do was pay the itemised damages.

Insurers agreed to settle the damages including the court fee and actually included an extra amount that wasn't included in the MCOL for the salvage operation that followed .



The legal system for pleasure boaters



Alright I got paid eventually but I am not sure that MCOL would have helped at all as I don't think that English Law applies to this situation ?

Would this incident have needed to be heard by the high court under maritime law ?



If so it effectively means that any dodgy insurance company can avoid Third Party claims knowing that now one will afford to be able to pursue a claim for damages ?







Lessons to learn



For Cheapskates

If you don't want the embarrassment of having court papers landing on your doorstep and or CCJ against your name/household then choose a long established quality insurer like Haven Knox Johnston or Navigators & General .



For anchor dummies

Get some professional tuition.

Learn how to anchor in a safe place and check it is set

If you get hooked up just tie a fender to the end of the chain and let the chain go



For us all

If an anchor gets too close its a lot easier to move even if you were there first

Be wary of any questionable boat marks (edited following Alan's post) - greater chance the skipper is inexperienced / clueless .

Photographs and witnesses are essential following any incident ( by fluke I had taken a photo of the bay which showed our boat anchored with no other boats close by (we were there first).

Well done pursuing it.

It‘s another reason to always have fenders out when anchoring - saves time fending off so you can concentente on getting the offending boat out of the problem. We have had a boat anchoring across our chain and their anchor sliding all the way up whilst they winch in and end up alongside us.

 

[Mr Googler]

I might have the wrong end of the stick and oddly….I’m going to agree with Porto!

Isnt the whole idea of insurance, and the advantage of using a top quality company, that they will sort all this stuff out. I had an incident where the Marina went below retained Minimum and I ended up on the bottom with outdrives down. Soft mud etc but still…told my insurance company and they talked to Marina insurance company and got them to pay for lifts, inspections etc…

I respect your knowledge Daka and obvious experience in these matters. It’s not something I would do alone. I’d bring the full might of the insurance company experts in (which I’ve paid for via buying their product)

I can’t see any advantage to not going via my insurance company. Please do share if there is one ?

 

[Tranona]

I claimed directly off the TP Insurers.

My Insurers didnt do anything wrong at all.

I am not sure how I stand on the forum for mentioning the TP insurers.

Thanks for this - Highlights the risks in pursuing claims against third parties direct rather than claiming on your own policy and letting your insurer deal with the third party.

Not sure everybody understands the differences in law covering claiming against a third party. You are claiming on the individual and he gets indemnity for his actions from his insurer (if he has one). The claim is covered by the common law of tort and you have to show that your loss is a consequence of his negligence - so the burden of proof is on your part and naturally the insurer will deny this until your claim becomes overwhelming - as in your case by taking them to court.

On the other hand if you claim on your insurer the claim is covered by the law of contract which in the case of all risks policies insures against damage whatever the cause (assuming it is covered by the terms of the contract as it would be in this case). So your insurer will pay out and then claim for their losses against the third party and their insurers.

So, why claim direct from the third party? Good question - in most cases not the best strategy as they will fight you in a way that they would not fight your insurer. However when claiming under tort you may get more - for example you could claim loss of amenity which is not normally covered in all risks contracts. Again, though you would have to show that the third party was negligent and that you suffered a real loss.

Personally I would never try claiming on the third party direct if I had all risks cover - that is what you are paying for. Cover for any damage whoever is responsible. The only downside is that you may lose your excess if your insurer is unable to recover from the third party, but in these situations you would not have been able to recover anyway so would have lost the whole value of the repair.

 

[DAKA]

Before this gets pulled..........................
"Be wary of any questionable boat marks ( Galeon, Bayliner, Bavia) and sports boats - greater chance the skipper is inexperienced / clueless "
Without wishing to provoke debate.
Some might observe that many start their boating careers with an urge to own the above, those who stay the course and through experience do tend to finish up with a Flybridge. ?
5-4-3-2-?

I dont think I have ever had a thread pulled ....... yet
Your response was very diplomatic, is it like treading on egg shells on the forum or is it back to the light hearted fun place it used to be

 

[DAKA]

Any views on Mercruisers in Sealines, just out of interest ?

Not sure that Im not in risk of being trollyed here ............

I cruised in company a long way with a sealine 310 with diesel Mercruiser's , Paris, St Hellier,St Peter Port , Amsterdam , beautiful boat and highly recommended it did have it's draw backs though and on return back to the UK it was Part Exchanged for a Flybridge

 

[DAKA]

I can’t see any advantage to not going via my insurance company. Please do share if there is one ?

Thanks for this - Highlights the risks in pursuing claims against third parties direct rather than claiming on your own policy and letting your insurer deal with the third party.



So, why claim direct from the third party? Good question - in most cases not the best strategy as they will fight you in a way that they would not fight your insurer. However when claiming under tort you may get more - for example you could claim loss of amenity which is not normally covered in all risks contracts. Again, though you would have to show that the third party was negligent and that you suffered a real loss.

Personally I would never try claiming on the third party direct if I had all risks cover - that is what you are paying for. Cover for any damage whoever is responsible. The only downside is that you may lose your excess if your insurer is unable to recover from the third party, but in these situations you would not have been able to recover anyway so would have lost the whole value of the repair.

Thanks for your responses, my reasoning for not claiming off my own policy rightly or wrongly were .................

I have seen so many "none fault " claims getting settled by own insurers and own insurers just don't have the resources or want to spend on thorough recoveries .
You mention for example that claim off your own insurer and just pay the excess then recover the excess.
In the real world I would have paid the excess and also the 20% loss of no claims bonus (NCB) for the next 4 years renewal on a sliding scale.
In the real world practicalities prevent recovery of NCB

In order to recover the excess I would have needed to claim off the TP and or TP Insurers so I took the attitude that I was halving my work load and halving time to settle to just claim the whole lot off the TP/TP Insurers

If my Insurers had paid my damages I would not have had freedom to take TP / TP Insurers to court - my insurers would have been too concerned about me prejudicing their position and would have wanted to handle it, time wise it would have been much easier for insurers to agree 50% / 50% fault , I would have almost certainly have lost 1/2 my excess and all of my NCB.

The bit that I am really unsure of is the Law applicable to an anchoring situation in UK inshore waters or marina bump , would the MCOL Judge be happy to rule on international Maritime law ?
If he had wanted this dealt with in the high court could costs have been in the thousands ?