A fun bluewater boat around 40'?

[papaver19]

Hello papaver19,

You mentioned Koopmans designs as being on your menu or radar or so...

Google "Hutting 40 for sale" and check out the Hutting Brokerage site.
They have two of this type for 175.000,- and 195.000,- Euros for sale. Both early 1990ies built. New they cost something in the area of 600 to 800 thou; before tax... The newer ones are all aluminium, which one has to like.
Long keel, only 1,6m draught, 10,10 m lwl, keel hung rudder, cutter rigged sloop. Steel hulls. Displacement abt 13,5 tons.

If you want to sail long distances and not be tired by a nervous boat, if you look for high average speed, there is your boat.
I own one even a couple of years older and I love her motion in the seas, her slicing through the waves, (Don't we all think our boats are fantastic?)
Of course she is not a star close hauled but full and by she runs like a train. And surprisingly she does not need a half-gale to get moving either.
On all other points of sail she is faster than one would think, forgiving and very seakindly. A boat that looks after you.

Read up on the boat, there are tests in "Palstek", a German sailing magazine and I think also "Yacht".

I bought mine some 15 years ago privately and had no support from the boatyard but found Mr. Dick Koopmans jr. very helpful and responsive.

Hope this ticks your box.

Fair winds, G.

Thanks, yes Hutting is on my radar. I'm not a fan of long-keelers, but I did enquire about a 44' Hutting a while back, which has a long fin, IIRC. Already gone, unfortunately.

 

[papaver19]

Here you go
New Location - 2004 MB Yachts Pocock 42 | Grabau International

This looks lovely underwater - I am appreciating the merits of deep-V hulls, now I have 'enjoyed' the slapping and banging that comes from a flat forefoot and stern

 

[papaver19]

Another Koopmans design, I’ve always liked the Victoire 1200 for this kind of brief. They come up reasonably frequently in the Netherlands if the OP can manage the admin on that (preferably not importing to the UK).

Yes - saw this and a 1270 on the De Valk website (they have a lot of good boats on there). On my list to ponder.

I am very flexible with flags, since I am British, Irish and have family in France. No intention of bringing anything back to the UK, so the world is my oyster (well, I can't afford an Oyster, but you know what I mean ;-)

 

[papaver19]

Yes Xc38 tend to be kept for long periods and rarely come on the market. Where do you want to start your cruise from - the USA ? https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/2015-x--yachts-xc-38-9105212/
Issue for use in UK and EU would be VAT depending on where resident.

Again, US not a problem - handy for winter in the Sea of Cortez then straight into the Pacific - but a bugger getting all my gear off the Typhoon and over there, probabvly easier to start again fram scratch. I did consider a couple of Tartan 4100s there, but now not convinced they are up to the job - more posey coastal affairs, I think,

 

[papaver19]

Do Maxi make a 40 footer? There was a Maxi 1100 up the pontoon from me that looked very well built and its owner described it as a decent blue water boat, though he himself hadn’t done any in it at the time.

Edit: how about this one, £225k so over budget but another one for the list perhaps:

New Listing - 2010-launched Maxi 1300 | Grabau International

Grabau have some nice boats on their site - the Finngulf 41 looks very tasty, with heaps of upgrades and goodies. Huge rig though, hmmm.

 

[Tranona]

This looks lovely underwater - I am appreciating the merits of deep-V hulls, now I have 'enjoyed' the slapping and banging that comes from a flat forefoot and stern

Probably unlikely to come up, but in a similar vein this is another MB built boat from Rob Humphries. I think 3 were built.
portsmouth.boatshed.com/amber_40-boat-253305.html When this one was sold it was well within your budget.

 

[papaver19]

Probably unlikely to come up, but in a similar vein this is another MB built boat from Rob Humphries. I think 3 were built.
portsmouth.boatshed.com/amber_40-boat-253305.html When this one was sold it was well within your budget.

Nice! Looks almost identical to the Victoire 1270 "Mischief" (presumably named after Tilman's cutter) currently advertised by De Valk. I'm really attracted to this boat, except that it's going to need everything done - new sails, new batteries, electronics update, solar, bimini etc etc. Not sure I can face doing everything again so soon after stuffing all that into the Typhoon.

 

[Major_Clanger]

Bowman 40

Wonderful, safe, good looking and a mile muncher.

 

[Supertramp]

Nice! Looks almost identical to the Victoire 1270 "Mischief" (presumably named after Tilman's cutter) currently advertised by De Valk. I'm really attracted to this boat, except that it's going to need everything done - new sails, new batteries, electronics update, solar, bimini etc etc. Not sure I can face doing everything again so soon after stuffing all that into the Typhoon.

Many of the items (sails, batteries, electronics) are consumable and you might as well start with new. And having done it recently should make it more painless to do again.

A nice design of boat, especially for long passages, but does it meet your fun criteria? I am of the mind that you can have too much fun and this design looks to avoid that problem!

 

[dunedin]

Bowman 40

Wonderful, safe, good looking and a mile muncher.

I guess the OP needs to decide what he is looking for - a modern style boat that is fun to sail and pleasantly brisk but not too much of a handful, or an older style boat, slower / more sedate and smaller inside but perhaps with other attractions.

One key factor is it is worth looking at LWL rather than LOA (or worse boat model name) for comparing boats - LWL is what makes the most difference to easy mile munching at better than average pace, as well as space inside. Beam also helps with space inside, and rarely impacts speed if well designed.
As such many of the older “40 footers” with 30-32 foot LWL will be a lot more cramped and sedate than a similar LOA boat with a 36-38 LWL.

Waquiez 40 was mentioned above, an older one less expensive one here - https://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2007-wauquiez-centurion-40-s-9356387/

 

[geem]

I guess the OP needs to decide what he is looking for - a modern style boat that is fun to sail and pleasantly brisk but not too much of a handful, or an older style boat, slower / more sedate and smaller inside but perhaps with other attractions.

One key factor is it is worth looking at LWL rather than LOA (or worse boat model name) for comparing boats - LWL is what makes the most difference to easy mile munching at better than average pace, as well as space inside. Beam also helps with space inside, and rarely impacts speed if well designed.
As such many of the older “40 footers” with 30-32 foot LWL will be a lot more cramped and sedate than a similar LOA boat with a 36-38 LWL.

Waquiez 40 was mentioned above, an older one less expensive one here - https://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2007-wauquiez-centurion-40-s-9356387/

For coastal sailing that all makes sense but when you are living aboard, you tend to have lots of gear. Liveaboard boats get heavier the longer you live on them. With that in mind, some of the older designs are better load luggers. When loaded up they tend to be less affected by weight than their modern counterpart.
You can have older designs with large sail area. Something I am very keen on. In light winds the rounder hull shape of older designs can be very efficient given enough canvas to get them moving. These are useful considerations when sailing long distances.
By example, a young French couple I met a few weeks ago in Horta at just sailed their Pogo 30 from St Martin. He said the boat was slow in light winds. He said it flew when the wind picked up., as you would expect. The wide hull flat bottom shape has lots of drag in light wind, even with a relatively long waterline.
You are right that older designs will be sedate, but I find this is only true when you get to hull speed. Then waterline is beneficial.
We had a light hearted race with friends in a modern 45ft boat a few weeks ago. 42nm distance. They beat us by about 300 metres. They did have full carbon race sails by North so that may have played to their advantage but in reality, no performance difference between old and new.

 

[Wansworth]

I thought the modern answer was a cat or tri?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Old boats that were converted to roller reefing genoa do suffer from a light wind speed penalty. The original designs had ghosters that provided the light wind drive.

I have found that modern roller furling genoas, in Vectran, plus other modern fabrics, are significantly stiffer than the Dacron of yesteryear. This results in a much stiffer sail to fold which takes up a greater volume. Hence lowering the furling headsail and hoisting the ghoster is not as convenient as it could be assumed. Further, the old No1s and 2s were deck sweepers which is not replicated on the furling sail, hence more penalty. Certainly, a Rival with ghoster or No1 is no slouch, but almost no one has this type of sail plan for long distance cruising.

 

[geem]

Old boats that were converted to roller reefing genoa do suffer from a light wind speed penalty. The original designs had ghosters that provided the light wind drive.

I have found that modern roller furling genoas, in Vectran, plus other modern fabrics, are significantly stiffer than the Dacron of yesteryear. This results in a much stiffer sail to fold which takes up a greater volume. Hence lowering the furling headsail and hoisting the ghoster is not as convenient as it could be assumed. Further, the old No1s and 2s were deck sweepers which is not replicated on the furling sail, hence more penalty. Certainly, a Rival with ghoster or No1 is no slouch, but almost no one has this type of sail plan for long distance cruising.

We have Vectran main and 130% genoa. Its cut so we can see forward under the sail. We also have a dacron staysail on a furler. We made great use of our mizzen staysail on a recent Atlantic crossing as wind was often on the beam or just forward of it where our spinnaker was of little benefit. With genoa, main and mizzen staysail set, we could fly 1500sqft of sail in light airs. Its a nice option on a ketch for light air performance. The mizzen staysail is the same size as our mainsail and sheets to the end of the mizzen boom.

 

[papaver19]

I guess the OP needs to decide what he is looking for - a modern style boat that is fun to sail and pleasantly brisk but not too much of a handful, or an older style boat, slower / more sedate and smaller inside but perhaps with other attractions.

One key factor is it is worth looking at LWL rather than LOA (or worse boat model name) for comparing boats - LWL is what makes the most difference to easy mile munching at better than average pace, as well as space inside. Beam also helps with space inside, and rarely impacts speed if well designed.
As such many of the older “40 footers” with 30-32 foot LWL will be a lot more cramped and sedate than a similar LOA boat with a 36-38 LWL.

Waquiez 40 was mentioned above, an older one less expensive one here - https://uk.boats.com/sailing-boats/2007-wauquiez-centurion-40-s-9356387/

Yes, I do absolutely have to make my mind up between those two styles. The boat I really lust after is a Rustler 42, which is a big ask, both on price and rarity, but we'll see - I can stretch for such a beauty & there may be one coming over the horizon, fingers crossed. Bowman 40 just too dated for me (I did look at one in the flesh). Thanks for the W40 link - I did see that, but teak decks royally shagged, so that's a world of pain.

 

[dunedin]

For coastal sailing that all makes sense but when you are living aboard, you tend to have lots of gear. Liveaboard boats get heavier the longer you live on them. With that in mind, some of the older designs are better load luggers. When loaded up they tend to be less affected by weight than their modern counterpart.
……

I know that is your view - but scientifically, a boat with a longer waterline and wider beam will cope with extra weight and sink less on its waterline than a boat with shorter LWL and beam.
And the sorts of modern boats which have been suggested in this thread are generally ones which are designed for fast cruising, with larger tankage and storage built in, with hull shapes optimised for carrying long term cruising gear. None of them are lightweights, and very differnt from your 30ft Pogo example which is a completely different type from a Wauqiuez or Xc.

 

[Tranona]

I know that is your view - but scientifically, a boat with a longer waterline and wider beam will cope with extra weight and sink less on its waterline than a boat with shorter LWL and beam.
And the sorts of modern boats which have been suggested in this thread are generally ones which are designed for fast cruising, with larger tankage and storage built in, with hull shapes optimised for carrying long term cruising gear. None of them are lightweights, and very differnt from your 30ft Pogo example which is a completely different type from a Wauqiuez or Xc.

I remember Andrew Simpson writing a long article on this subject when he was designing his last boat to demonstrate exactly what you are saying. The calculations of immersion rates is not difficult if you have the data for the boat. Like you I find it difficult to understand why somebody would bring a Pogo 30 into this discussion as it has little in common with any of the boats suggested so far other than some people use the type for long distance sailing.

 

[geem]

I remember Andrew Simpson writing a long article on this subject when he was designing his last boat to demonstrate exactly what you are saying. The calculations of immersion rates is not difficult if you have the data for the boat. Like you I find it difficult to understand why somebody would bring a Pogo 30 into this discussion as it has little in common with any of the boats suggested so far other than some people use the type for long distance sailing.

A Pogo has a long waterline and wide beam. An example of what happens when you take these things to extreme. You sail slower when you don't have the sail area to overcome the drag. It may be an extreme example but it does explain the point.
I know the theory about waterline, but in light winds, if waterline comes with extra drag is negates much of the speed benefit, unless you can fly a lot of sail and create more power. That is not always an easy option short handed.
In many ways, lot of this discussion is academic. It is quite different when you actually get out there putting in ocean miles when you are short handed. A boat that keep you well rested by vertue of good motion, the ability to sail well in light winds, look after you when the weather is poor, that doesn't slam to weather and tracks well on Autopilot and wind self steering, has a cockpit that provides shelter from wind and rain, is worth a lot more than one that has a potential higher speed under certain ideal conditions, in my opinion. All boats are a compromise. Experience shapes your choices

 

[dunedin]

A Pogo has a long waterline and wide beam. An example of what happens when you take these things to extreme. You sail slower when you don't have the sail area to overcome the drag. It may be an extreme example but it does explain the point.
I know the theory about waterline, but in light winds, if waterline comes with extra drag is negates much of the speed benefit, unless you can fly a lot of sail and create more power. That is not always an easy option short handed.
In many ways, lot of this discussion is academic. It is quite different when you actually get out there putting in ocean miles when you are short handed. A boat that keep you well rested by vertue of good motion, the ability to sail well in light winds, look after you when the weather is poor, that doesn't slam to weather and tracks well on Autopilot and wind self steering, has a cockpit that provides shelter from wind and rain, is worth a lot more than one that has a potential higher speed under certain ideal conditions, in my opinion. All boats are a compromise. Experience shapes your choices

NOBODY has suggested a Pogo for the OPs need. And using something like the Waquiez 40S which is not a loghtweight, but 8.6T dry ship, so around 10T with tanks filled and basic gear on board. As noted, with the longer LWL and wider beam this will absorb an additional ton of long distance gear without any material impact on its lines - unlike a boat with shorter LWL and narrower beam which will, by pure science, sink more.
Once moving the 10% extra weight will make minimal difference to cruising speed. It will remain a boat that makes longer average daily runs, without being light and flighty.

 

[ashtead]

If looking for a Rustler 42 I would try to find one with a white hull and without teak decks -this is based on what I was told by rustler owner -the layout below is somewhat Marmite but there is plenty of space -that said you might have to stretch the budget. .tend to agree with comments on Bowman 40 but having been on one and larger Bowman have a lovely finish but maybe go for a 47 to be had at 250kapprox I suspect . One on the Berthon website last time I looked. Good luck with searching for the Rustler though -maybe Red Ensign have a list for searching buyers?