A fun bluewater boat around 40'?

[geem]

Struggling to find 'my perfect boat', so I thought I would ask the hive mind. I guess it's a common question, but everyone looking to circumnavigate on these forums seems to gravitate to 45'+ and that is far too big for me - I mostly singlehand, with occasional visitors and friends, but never more than 3 on-board.

Currently I have a 37' Westerly Typhoon. She is great fun to sail, responding to every tweak and benefitting massively from new Hydranet sails. Unfortunately she is basically a PITA on long passages - just too dynamic after 5 days 'out there'. I've put 10,000 miles on her, currently in the Canaries and my evil plan was Brazil -> Cape Town -> Oz -> Pacific. I guess that I am a slow learner, but I have come to accept that she is clearly not the boat for that.

Happily I find myself with a couple of hundred thousand pounds burning a hole in my pocket, so looking to upgrade to something more suitable - less dynamic, but still fun to sail (i.e. no Island Packets and other barges with sails). Around 40-41' tops (so I can still take off the sails on my own when necessary & poles etc are still human-sized). Aft cockpit (CC just not my thing), no furling mainsails (increasingly hard to avoid these days), fin or long fin (not a long keel kinda guy)

The Dutch seem to have a lot of good boats, but often look like a hospital down below (love my cosy teak on the Typhoon). Koopmans? Some Van der Stadts. Hard to find a Contest which is small enough without being really old. Wauquiez used to be great, but lost the plot with the deck saloons & the good ones are too dated now. Malo, if I could find a 37-40 without a furling main. Part of me wants an RM, but I know that is my evil side ;-) I was getting enthused about the Canadian Saga 409, until I discovered the flex issues. Also not keen on twin wheels and the windows are too big (and leak).

Hoping there is something out there that I missed.

We quite often see Koopmans 40s being sailed by singlehanded Dutch guys. I always thought they looked like a serious boat. The specs looks right and they seem to have built them in every material. Some look really good down below. Some not so. Might be worth a further look?

 

[dunedin]

If you want 'fun to sail' without 'being too much a lively little boat when you're out there', it sounds like a bigger boat is the answer.
The small-medium 'blue water boats' don't seem to be a lot of 'fun' for local sailing in nice weather.

That's where thing s like the Xc38 I mentioned earlier fit the niche - fast, strong, seaworthy, great interior. And a few circling the globe currently (though even more of its bigger sisters like Xc45)

 

[papaver19]

Rival 41, aft cockpit or centre cockpit. A few on the market post upgrade, exceptional value for money and with the shape and living space for ocean voyaging and marina, at anchor living.

Rival 41 AC for sale UK, Rival boats for sale, Rival used boat sales, Rival Sailing Yachts For Sale Rival 41AC - Apollo Duck

I have no association with the seller.

That is not a terrible idea. I know Peter Lawless loves his & probably the right mix of fun and comfort

With a 200K and a bit budget £30K for changing if he can find an older Malo in the £160K region is not out of the question but as you say in mast or in boom should not be a show stopper most boats circumnavigating or seriously cruising will have one or the other and for a single hander make a lot of sense. The OP is fixated on performance but doesn't want the downside of managing and living on a performance orientated boat and if he thinks a Typhoon ( one of Westerlies better boats) is a PITA he will find a lot of modern boats are worse on an ocean voyage.

Not "fixated on performance", just like to enjoy my sailing & not feel that I am on a dead truck of a boat.

When you say 'too dynamic', do you mean that the motion is too lively for comfort, or that the boat lacks course stability? Or both?
I should say that I have no useful knowledge to contribute re your actual question, I'm just interested...

Yes, too lively for comfort in a developed sea. She tracks just fine.

Not all Moody41ac have in mast -it’s an option if you prefer convenience and smaller main. We preferred stack pack and have no issues with it . If however our sail area was larger on a bigger boat say an xc45 which will be out of budget then would go with it. At 40 you are on cusp. Another 41 type is a secondhand Arcona 412 if you can live with the mainsheet location and what is a more lively boat I suspect than a Moody but again will be out of budget I suspect. Clearly in a newer yacht you can drop from cockpit as lines run back so quite quick compared to inmast drop wind in -just need to ensure enough space to head to wind of course -certainly would stick with what you want initially though and not waste budget on conversion. Personally I like build quality of Contest but note comments re size etc.

I do like the 41AC & have enquired about one with slab reefing in Port Solent, but I suspect it has gone already, we'll see. The self-tacking jib would have to go & I'd investigate changing to a conventional mainsheet with traveller in the cockpit that I can deal with from the helm (if you have an opinion on that, I'd be glad to hear it), but neither are show-stoppers.

Love Arconas for hooning around and quality but suspect they are a bit on the lively side. I had filed XC38 under in the same drawer, but maybe I am wrong on both counts.

I have a Van De Stadt Caribbean 40 which I singlehand - with the hard dodger it's very practical for offshore. I think they have only ever been made as one-offs, so each is individual, although I think the yard that built mine did several. Not sure how "fun" it is, as I mostly have it on tillerpilot.

Am surprised you're not looking first at other Westerys. Mind you, although I've never been on a Typhoon, I'm surprised to read she's such a handful.

Other Westerlys are too far the other way for my taste - big fat puddings I had never imagined owning a Westerly for that reason, but the Typhoon is an outlier.

Big thanks to everyone who has contributed to my dilemma - this is all helping a lot & has got my mind heading down several new tracks

 

[papaver19]

We quite often see Koopmans 40s being sailed by singlehanded Dutch guys. I always thought they looked like a serious boat. The specs looks right and they seem to have built them in every material. Some look really good down below. Some not so. Might be worth a further look?

Yes, Koopmans are on my radar, thanks

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… I do like the 41AC & have enquired about one with slab reefing in Port Solent, but I suspect it has gone already, we'll see. The self-tacking jib would have to go & I'd investigate changing to a conventional mainsheet with traveller in the cockpit that I can deal with from the helm (if you have an opinion on that, I'd be glad to hear it), but neither are show-stoppers. …

Two common conversions to Rival is cutter rig and main sheet traveler. Harkens, no doubt others, make a traveler system that has end supports only. They are like triangular, press steel, pillars, rectangular base. They are very easy to install and bridge the forward area of the aft cabin roof and negates screw holes and bent track to the curve of the roof.

Cutter rig needs internal strengthening for deck mounted stay, or a chain plate bar, rod straight through to the stem with deck seal. The latter is easy, the former has plans available but keeps forecabin free from being divided. Cutter needs tracks for sheets and foot blocks but uses main sheet winches as built.

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Here's one you could consider: A Valiant 40, I have singlehanded and double handed the bigger 50 footer and raced against a 40 footer. Not slow but sold world girdling boats, you will more than likely have to go to the States to buy one though. You might just get a Valiant 50 at the top end of your budget.

 

[dunedin]

Love Arconas for hooning around and quality but suspect they are a bit on the lively side. I had filed XC38 under in the same drawer, but maybe I am wrong on both counts.

Arconas are certainly lively in terms of fun, but with 3rd reef fitted should be able to throttle back as good boats.

The Xc38 is an X-Cruising version, very different from the Xp38, which is X Performsnce. The Xc is slightly heavier, but also more optimised for long range cruising - bigger keel area (no T keel), more rounded hull shape, bigger tanks, more storage, enclosed stern with drop down step etc etc. Fast cruiser but probably more ocean friendly than most boats.
And no issues of keel failure with metal keel / rig support structure on both Arcona and X-Yachts.

Completely differnt world from things like Rivals (shorter waterline, narrower etc), and more focussed than modern Moody etc

Budget could be an issue. The Waquiez 40 AC is another lovely boat, and a 2005 era Dehler 40 another, but again perhaps more on the lively side.

 

[Tranona]

It's nice to hear from somebody with similar experience to me who understands the hull dynamics issue of lightweight twitchy boats. Great for coastal cruising but not at home in the ocean environment.
Good luck with you search. I can't think of any 40 footers that would be a perfect match for you. It's a common problem now all production boats are optimised for a totally different market

The Typhoon is hardly a lightweight boat at 7.5 tonnes on 32' WL. sailboatdata.com/sailboat/typhoon-37-westerly/ with a ballast ratio of 37% SA/Displ of 226. Pretty mainstream for an older style performance cruiser. Long fin keel and deep canoe body (although does have one of what you consider to be unseaworthy spade rudders!) Maybe the high SA/Disp of 22 and the fractional rig which contributes to the fun has something to do with it being a bit of a handful single handed on long passages.

Very different from the boats you consider unsuitable and designed specifically to be more performance orientated than other Westerlys at the time - as the OP points out.

 

[Manosk]

The Typhoon is hardly a lightweight boat at 7.5 tonnes on 32' WL. sailboatdata.com/sailboat/typhoon-37-westerly/ with a ballast ratio of 37% SA/Displ of 226. Pretty mainstream for an older style performance cruiser. Long fin keel and deep canoe body (although does have one of what you consider to be unseaworthy spade rudders!) Maybe the high SA/Disp of 22 and the fractional rig which contributes to the fun has something to do with it being a bit of a handful single handed on long passages.

Very different from the boats you consider unsuitable and designed specifically to be more performance orientated than other Westerlys at the time - as the OP points out.

 

[Manosk]

Have a look at a Forgus 37(my previous boat) excellent boat a Swedish couple sailed her to Antarctica

 

[Goldie]

If the Rival 41 is “not such a terrible idea” (post #23) then how about Bowman 40 or 42? Not a ‘performance boat’ by any means, but more modern and quicker than the Rival.

 

[papaver19]

If the Rival 41 is “not such a terrible idea” (post #23) then how about Bowman 40 or 42? Not a ‘performance boat by any means, but more modern and quicker than the Rival.

Good call - the Bowman 42 looks lovely & you can't fault Rustler build quality. Finding one is the tricky part, I guess. On closer inspection the Rival 41 has that mad two-companionway thing - you have to go into the aft cabin to get into the cockpit - but that is fixed in the Bowmans.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… On closer inspection the Rival 41 has that mad two-companionway thing - you have to go into the aft cabin to get into the cockpit - ….

No they don’t have that. Rival 41C the aft cabin is accessed from the saloon via a passage. The aft cabin access on the 41C from the cockpit is just a secondary access. On the 41A there is access from the galley side, and cockpit as well.

The passageway on the 41C can either have a navigator’s bunk or additional storage. The passageway also gives full length access to the engine space on the starboard side. The passageway does require you to stoop to walk through. The 41A is normal height.

Rival 41C

https://flic.kr/p/2q44AsD

Rival 41A

https://flic.kr/p/2q44Av9

 

[Goldie]

Good call - the Bowman 42 looks lovely & you can't fault Rustler build quality. Finding one is the tricky part, I guess. On closer inspection the Rival 41 has that mad two-companionway thing - you have to go into the aft cabin to get into the cockpit - but that is fixed in the Bowmans.

Red Ensign Brokerage would normally be the UK broker of choice for any Bowman sellers and I suspect that some boats are sold before hitting the website. If seriously interested, I’d register with them.

Another suggestion: Starlight 39?

 

[papaver19]

Red Ensign Brokerage would normally be the UK broker of choice for any Bowman sellers and I suspect that some boats are sold before hitting the website. If seriously interested, I’d register with them.

Another suggestion: Starlight 39?

Thanks yes - have registered my interest with Red Ensign already today

Starlights? Less oceanic, I thought, but will investigate, thanks.

Also liking the Tartan 3700, though will involve buying in the States. Great looking boat, modern where it matters, even down to the carbon mast on some of them.

 

[geem]

Red Ensign Brokerage would normally be the UK broker of choice for any Bowman sellers and I suspect that some boats are sold before hitting the website. If seriously interested, I’d register with them.

Another suggestion: Starlight 39?

I don't think the Starlight 39 would fit the bill. A friend has one. Pretty lively. Nice around the cans but very bouncy in a sea. They slap like crazy at the stern at anchor.

 

[papaver19]

They slap like crazy at the stern at anchor.

Red Flag for me! I HATE that about the Typhoon. Starlight crossed off the list

 

[geem]

The Typhoon is hardly a lightweight boat at 7.5 tonnes on 32' WL. sailboatdata.com/sailboat/typhoon-37-westerly/ with a ballast ratio of 37% SA/Displ of 226. Pretty mainstream for an older style performance cruiser. Long fin keel and deep canoe body (although does have one of what you consider to be unseaworthy spade rudders!) Maybe the high SA/Disp of 22 and the fractional rig which contributes to the fun has something to do with it being a bit of a handful single handed on long passages.

Very different from the boats you consider unsuitable and designed specifically to be more performance orientated than other Westerlys at the time - as the OP points out.

I am not commenting on the Typhoon. The OP has made it clear how he feels about the boat. In my experience, stats never give the full picture. I remember once on this forum, somebody asked about the Southerly 42RST as a blue water boat. You and others gave it a glowing report based on nothing but stats, having never sailed one. A delivery skipper then replied, having just sailed one across Biscay in poor weather and ripped it to pieces. The wide stern was picked up by following seas and buried the bow. They had ripped off the anchor locker lid. He went into lots more detail. There is no substitute for experience.
I have sailed and raced several modern designs and done some ocean passages. I have built up experience in those conditions and have a feel for what I want out of a boat for long distance. The OP has sailed his boat long distance and understands the shortcomings and now want something more suitable. Good luck to him finding a suitable boat

 

[ashtead]

A couple of comments -don’t dismiss self tacking headsails as make single handed sailing simpler than on say a 34. What about sail area I hear you cry ,well large headsail is also rigged sitting forward of the furler. It’s a narrow slot so tacking means furling headsail in and out but that’s not really an issue on a long run . If 2 headsails seem restrictive then a third crusing chute on a detachable bowsprit for longer down passages .re the mainsail its sheets come back to winches either side by helm to trim . Therefore tacking and sheeting all doable from one of the twin wheels. Electric winches help with raising the main etc .

 

[geem]

A couple of comments -don’t dismiss self tacking headsails as make single handed sailing simpler than on say a 34. What about sail area I hear you cry ,well large headsail is also rigged sitting forward of the furler. It’s a narrow slot so tacking means furling headsail in and out but that’s not really an issue on a long run . If 2 headsails seem restrictive then a third crusing chute on a detachable bowsprit for longer down passages .re the mainsail its sheets come back to winches either side by helm to trim . Therefore tacking and sheeting all doable from one of the twin wheels. Electric winches help with raising the main etc .

I don't see self tacking headsails as a benefit on long distance cruisers. Twin headsails is far more advantageous, in my opinion. You do see this set up often on long distance cruising boats a lot. Being able to furl away a large genoa and then have a smaller heavy duty headsail for working to weather, without having to leave the cockpit makes a lot of sense.