A fun bluewater boat around 40'?

[Tranona]

A Pogo has a long waterline and wide beam. An example of what happens when you take these things to extreme. You sail slower when you don't have the sail area to overcome the drag. It may be an extreme example but it does explain the point.
I know the theory about waterline, but in light winds, if waterline comes with extra drag is negates much of the speed benefit, unless you can fly a lot of sail and create more power. That is not always an easy option short handed.
In many ways, lot of this discussion is academic. It is quite different when you actually get out there putting in ocean miles when you are short handed. A boat that keep you well rested by vertue of good motion, the ability to sail well in light winds, look after you when the weather is poor, that doesn't slam to weather and tracks well on Autopilot and wind self steering, has a cockpit that provides shelter from wind and rain, is worth a lot more than one that has a potential higher speed under certain ideal conditions, in my opinion. All boats are a compromise. Experience shapes your choices

But this thread is NOT about light 9m boats but substantial 11/12m boats. Why do you always have to go to extremes when trying to justify your position? You always act as if only you know about these things and in this context your choice of boat is extreme - well outside the range of boats that are commonly used for ocean cruising. The vast majority are as different from yours as they are from a Pogo. It is not only your experience that is valid but those of thousands of others who do the same thing as you in boats that have little in common with yours. So clearly those qualities you describe are present in a wide range of boat types.

 

[geem]

But this thread is NOT about light 9m boats but substantial 11/12m boats. Why do you always have to go to extremes when trying to justify your position? You always act as if only you know about these things and in this context your choice of boat is extreme - well outside the range of boats that are commonly used for ocean cruising. The vast majority are as different from yours as they are from a Pogo. It is not only your experience that is valid but those of thousands of others who do the same thing as you in boats that have little in common with yours. So clearly those qualities you describe are present in a wide range of boat types.

What experience do you have that is valid to the discussion?

 

[RobbieW]

Fr Hackett - I'd assumed that a furling main was an enormous pain to change - new mast time, since that mandrel has to go & then you have the huge slot to fill. I should probably stop assuming and look into it - thanks! yes, only looking secondhand - £200k doesn't buy you much new & hoping for all the long-range goodies added by previous owners already

A friend of mine has recently had in-mast on a Nordship 40 removed and replaced it with slab. The mast has had a plate riveted across the in-mast furling gap, mandrel removed, a track fixed to the plate, replacement boom and a new main. The main was up for renewal so offset some of the cost but I dont believe it was stupid expensive to do, so long as you can manage the project and do some work yourself - only contract out the bits you cant. The riggers who did the mast work were VMG at Shamrock in Southampton.

 

[papaver19]

A friend of mine has recently had in-mast on a Nordship 40 removed and replaced it with slab. The mast has had a plate riveted across the in-mast furling gap, mandrel removed, a track fixed to the plate, replacement boom and a new main. The main was up for renewal so offset some of the cost but I dont believe it was stupid expensive to do, so long as you can manage the project and do some work yourself - only contract out the bits you cant. The riggers who did the mast work were VMG at Shamrock in Southampton.

Good info, thanks. Another plus with that is that you end up with a nice "Tides Marine" track or similar, lovely for hoisting and dropping the main

 

[Goldie]

Bowman 40

Wonderful, safe, good looking and a mile muncher.

If anyone’s looking for one, I’ve just come across a nice one that has come on the market for a private sale at www.bowman40forsale.com

No, it’s not mine and no connection etc. etc.

 

[Tranona]

What experience do you have that is valid to the discussion?

Plenty thank you, but I was referring to the experience of others - the thousands that roam the oceans in boats that have little in common with yours. I have posted plenty of links in the past to people who have crossed oceans etc in different kinds of boats that you dismiss, but surprise, surprise you ignore them. A way of seeing is a way of not seeing and you seem only to see selected things.

 

[geem]

Plenty thank you, but I was referring to the experience of others - the thousands that roam the oceans in boats that have little in common with yours. I have posted plenty of links in the past to people who have crossed oceans etc in different kinds of boats that you dismiss, but surprise, surprise you ignore them. A way of seeing is a way of not seeing and you seem only to see selected things.

Haha, I was waiting for that!
Mike Pockocks Brown Bear is here. Shares lots of similarities with my boat. The collection of boats here in Ponta Delgada has far more specialised boats than your average Med marina or South coast marina. Here people are sailing long distances. Either from mainland Europe or the Caribbean return leg. Yes you see production boats but a far higher percentage of bluewater boats. That not because I told them to. They made up there own mind. People sail 18 footers across the pond. It doesn't make it the optimum choice. Of course you can sail a modern production boat across an ocean but if you are going to make a habit of it, buy something optimised for the job.
If you had ever done any ocean miles you would come to the conclusions that there are better boats than production boats for this job. We have met a number of cruisers who started off in production boats then traded up to something more suitable once they decided that ocean sailing wasn't going to be a one off.
Instead of preaching about somebody else's experience why not try it yourself. Then you can come on here and speak from a position of experience rather than saying if other people do it it must be OK.

 

[dunedin]

It is sad that a handful of people on this forum seem to have started to assert “my experience is better than yours” - dismissing others not fitting their fixed viewpoints or their self assessed criteria.
The whole essence of this forum is that it can generate a wide range of experience and expertise - some with many decades of expertise, some with fresh eyes of a newcomer - and across a huge range of boats (from Mirror dinghies to superyachts) and range of cruising (from Cumbrian lakes to The North Passage). All giving their input to help others.
People who instantly dismiss others experience are often lacking the open mind to learn more themselves.

Haha, I was waiting for that!
Mike Pockocks Brown Bear is here. Shares lots of similarities with my boat. U. Either from mainland Europe or the Caribbean return leg. Yes you see production boats but a far higher percentage of bluewater boats. That not because I told them to. They made up there own mind. People sail 18 footers across the pond. It doesn't make it the optimum choice. Of course you can sail a modern production boat across an ocean but if you are going to make a habit of it, buy something optimised for the job.
If you had ever done any ocean miles you would come to the conclusions that there are better boats than production boats for this job. We have met a number of cruisers who started off in production boats then traded up to something more suitable once they decided that ocean sailing wasn't going to be a one off.
Instead of preaching about somebody else's experience why not try it yourself. Then you can come on here and speak from a position of experience rather than saying if other people do it it must be OK.

Your comments are rather patronising to Tranona, who is one of the most prolific and helpful posters on here. With a HUGE range of expertise. And your claim to have “Met a number of cruisers” is purely second hand, with usual risk of confirmation bias. I suspect Tranona has “met” a lot more cruisers than you in his time.
And many on here who don’t brag will have done massively more ocean sailing than I suspect you have yet. They tend to be modest.

But as you choose to challenge others expertise - again - perhaps you can clarify your specific experience related to the experience you have dismissed. We know you have done a few miles in your own boat which you like. Which is fine.
But others have dared to suggest some other types of boat (not high volume “production cruisers” or Poge 30s that you keep referring back to).
So please advise - how many sea miles have you personally done on specifically the types of boats some have suggested that you dismiss. Ie post 2010 - Waquiez Centurian? X-Cruising? Arcona? Perhaps modern HR? Any at all?
(We shouldn’t need to state our sailing CVs in every post just to keep you happy - but I have personally done c.25k miles in one of these types, including trans-ocean.)

People should be more open to others opinions and experience and less dismissive. The OP can sift through and learn from the breadth of perspectives.

 

[geem]

It is sad that a handful of people on this forum seem to have started to assert “my experience is better than yours” - dismissing others not fitting their fixed viewpoints or their self assessed criteria.
The whole essence of this forum is that it can generate a wide range of experience and expertise - some with many decades of expertise, some with fresh eyes of a newcomer - and across a huge range of boats (from Mirror dinghies to superyachts) and range of cruising (from Cumbrian lakes to The North Passage). All giving their input to help others.
People who instantly dismiss others experience are often lacking the open mind to learn more themselves.

Your comments are rather patronising to Tranona, who is one of the most prolific and helpful posters on here. With a HUGE range of expertise. And your claim to have “Met a number of cruisers” is purely second hand, with usual risk of confirmation bias. I suspect Tranona has “met” a lot more cruisers than you in his time.
And many on here who don’t brag will have done massively more ocean sailing than I suspect you have yet. They tend to be modest.

But as you choose to challenge others expertise - again - perhaps you can clarify your specific experience related to the experience you have dismissed. We know you have done a few miles in your own boat which you like. Which is fine.
But others have dared to suggest some other types of boat (not high volume “production cruisers” or Poge 30s that you keep referring back to).
So please advise - how many sea miles have you personally done on specifically the types of boats some have suggested that you dismiss. Ie post 2010 - Waquiez Centurian? X-Cruising? Arcona? Perhaps modern HR? Any at all?
(We shouldn’t need to state our sailing CVs in every post just to keep you happy - but I have personally done c.25k miles in one of these types, including trans-ocean.)

People should be more open to others opinions and experience and less dismissive. The OP can sift through and learn from the breadth of perspectives.

Tranona has some very good expertise in VAT, propellers and other good stuff. I am not taking that away from him. He has no ocean miles but he loves to tell people on this forum about other people's experience.
You ask me about my experience in modern production boats in an ocean environment but how many ocean miles have you done in a true bluewater boat to compare with your experience in a production boat? It works both ways.
I am not challenging expertise. I am providing a balance against people like Tranona who have no expertise but are very vocal. It's a free world. We are allowed a view. I am not dismissive of production boats. Thry have their place but they are not optimised for ocean sailing. Go back to the OP. He is ,looking to sail bluewater. Suggesting he looks at some bluewater boats is hardly radical.

 

[dunedin]

Tranona has some very good expertise in VAT, propellers and other good stuff. I am not taking that away from him. He has no ocean miles but he loves to tell people on this forum about other people's experience.
You ask me about my experience in modern production boats in an ocean environment but how many ocean miles have you done in a true bluewater boat to compare with your experience in a production boat? It works both ways.
I am not challenging expertise. I am providing a balance against people like Tranona who have no expertise but are very vocal. It's a free world. We are allowed a view. I am not dismissive of production boats. Thry have their place but they are not optimised for ocean sailing. Go back to the OP. He is ,looking to sail bluewater. Suggesting he looks at some bluewater boats is hardly radical.

OK - so it is a NIL for your personal sea miles, let alone cross ocean miles, in the types of boats we were suggesting.
Whereas others have many k miles. Perhaps you should be more open minded.

 

[geem]

OK - so it is a NIL for your personal sea miles, let alone cross ocean miles, in the types of boats we were suggesting.
Whereas others have many k miles. Perhaps you should be more open minded.

I didn't say I had no miles. I was waiting to see if you had any miles in a bluewater boat

 

[dunedin]

I didn't say I had no miles. I was waiting to see if you had any miles in a bluewater boat

Keep digging.
I have not suggested your boat couldn’t cross oceans. Just suggested alternatives closer to the OPs brief.
But, yes plenty in blue water Boats, including one of the types suggested. And also, does an 67 foot steel Challenger count as blue water boat in your terms?

 

[geem]

Keep digging.
I have not suggested your boat couldn’t cross oceans. Just suggested alternatives closer to the OPs brief.
But, yes plenty in blue water Boats, including one of the types suggested. And also, does an 67 foot steel Challenger count as blue water boat in your terms?

Were you the skipper of the Challenger boat? Note the OP will be sailing single handed not mob handed.
Here is somebody that shares my view.
Slamming into Wind. Does it have to be like this? - Kraken Yachts

 

[papaver19]

If anyone’s looking for one, I’ve just come across a nice one that has come on the market for a private sale at www.bowman40forsale.com

No, it’s not mine and no connection etc. etc.

Thanks for the link, looks nice, though will probably need new sails as no info on their age. Like that it has a mast track already though. Definitely less tired than the one in Madeira.

 

[papaver19]

Were you the skipper of the Challenger boat? Note the OP will be sailing single handed not mob handed.
Here is somebody that shares my view.
Slamming into Wind. Does it have to be like this? - Kraken Yachts

Good article - my experience leads me to agree with everything raised there

 

[Goldie]

Here is somebody that shares my view.
Slamming into Wind. Does it have to be like this? - Kraken Yachts

Interestingly, the boat on the cover of the book used as an illustration within the article is… a Bowman 40!

 

[Sea Change]

'Production' vs 'blue water' boats...
As has been said many times, all sorts of boats can do ocean crossings.
My own observation of what people are actually using is this: when we were in the Med, the vast majority of boats we saw were pretty 'clean' production boats. Our MAB with its windvane, acres of solar, rigid dinghy, etc etc, stuck out like a sore thumb.
But when we reached Las Palmas, it was very different. The gathering Transat fleet was incredibly diverse. Yes there were plenty of production boats, but also older MABs, home built steel boats, every sort of rig, hull, and material you could name. We fitted right in.

 

[Tranona]

Good info, thanks. Another plus with that is that you end up with a nice "Tides Marine" track or similar, lovely for hoisting and dropping the main

Agree about Tides Marine tracks as I have just fitted one to my old Proctor mast. However when you look at converting an in mast think carefully about whether the in mast extrusion is suitable for slab reefing. Later Selden sections for in mast are different from the slab reefing for the same boat so best to check it out before committing.

 

[Tranona]

Here is somebody that shares my view.
Slamming into Wind. Does it have to be like this? - Kraken Yachts

Well he would say that because he is trying to sell a boat that is different from just about all its competitors. He is probably having a tough time as buyers with that kind of money have a wide choice of modern well proven boats. The article itself is the typical doom and gloom warning about things that don't actually happen - not disputing that modern boats can slam to windward, but the consequences for the structure are not what is claimed - just like "keels falling off" is just scaremongering. Like you he starts using lightweight racing boats to support his argument - modern production boats are somewhat removed from the Open 60s he uses as examples. He also misquotes the designer of my boat.

There is room for every type of boat and the measure of success is whether people buy, use and are happy with them. This continual harping on what some are doing wrong and how unsuitable their boats are gets a bit wearing. It is collective experience that counts NOT individual. Designs and styles of boats have changed because buyers expectations are different. It is the job of designers and builders to reflect this in their offerings and the fact that there are so many different choices in the same market sector suggests that there is no single "best" for everybody.

There are however clear trends over time and the older heavy displacement, heavily ballasted boats from the past have disappeared from the market. This suggests that the people that really matter - the (new boat) buyers - do not value their properties. That is what I mean by collective experience. It is not my personal experience that matters in this respect (and remember I own one of those old style boats!). Of course when an individual asks for some suggestions as in this case it makes sense to identify what s/he sees as important (and in this case not easy as by his own admission he is a bundle of contradictions) so you will see that every boat I have suggested could meet his criteria. Quite why anybody should introduce a Pogo or even "lightweight boats" in general into this discussion is beyond me even for comparison when, as I pointed out his current boat is not in that category but still has unacceptable "dynamics". That like the article you linked to is classic "straw man".

 

[geem]

Well he would say that because he is trying to sell a boat that is different from just about all its competitors. He is probably having a tough time as buyers with that kind of money have a wide choice of modern well proven boats. The article itself is the typical doom and gloom warning about things that don't actually happen - not disputing that modern boats can slam to windward, but the consequences for the structure are not what is claimed - just like "keels falling off" is just scaremongering. Like you he starts using lightweight racing boats to support his argument - modern production boats are somewhat removed from the Open 60s he uses as examples. He also misquotes the designer of my boat.

There is room for every type of boat and the measure of success is whether people buy, use and are happy with them. This continual harping on what some are doing wrong and how unsuitable their boats are gets a bit wearing. It is collective experience that counts NOT individual. Designs and styles of boats have changed because buyers expectations are different. It is the job of designers and builders to reflect this in their offerings and the fact that there are so many different choices in the same market sector suggests that there is no single "best" for everybody.

There are however clear trends over time and the older heavy displacement, heavily ballasted boats from the past have disappeared from the market. This suggests that the people that really matter - the (new boat) buyers - do not value their properties. That is what I mean by collective experience. It is not my personal experience that matters in this respect (and remember I own one of those old style boats!). Of course when an individual asks for some suggestions as in this case it makes sense to identify what s/he sees as important (and in this case not easy as by his own admission he is a bundle of contradictions) so you will see that every boat I have suggested could meet his criteria. Quite why anybody should introduce a Pogo or even "lightweight boats" in general into this discussion is beyond me even for comparison when, as I pointed out his current boat is not in that category but still has unacceptable "dynamics". That like the article you linked to is classic "straw man".

You miss the point. The OP is looking for a bluewater boat to sail bluewater. That's the post.