Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
It’s practice for the real thing.
a 10m boat suitable for single handed inshore racing?
- Thread starter Birdseye
- Start date
Birdseye
Well-known member
You are being a bit too black/ white here. The racing isnt serious south coast stuff - instead its a bunch of old men in old boats, few of which were ever intended as race boats. Its mid week because we are all retired and its very short legs because going in and out of the barrage locks is good for at least an hour each way. So skippers do try to keep to the rules and I have seen boats doing their turns. But protest committees with each side having a different story creating bad blood arent wanted.
As for overtaking, RRS cant override Colregs. Overtaking boat is obliged to keep clear.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Practiced yesterday as planned Chiara. I am not sure that the heave to approach would really work except possibly before the 5 mins gun and as a way of avoiding close quarters milling around whilst single handed. Boat speed dropped to 0.9kn in 15kn breeze and looking at the water my guess is that most of that 0.9 was sideays down wind. Coming out of heave to was not that quick or well controlled because the boat did not have steerage way at first.
Totally failed to find a balance of sails which allowed hands off rudder when beating. On a beam reach it was possible
Totally failed to find a balance of sails which allowed hands off rudder when beating. On a beam reach it was possible
dunedin
Well-known member
When two boats are racing in the same race in good visibility, then they have elected to apply Racing Rules between then not Colregs.
Generally they are largely consistent, but there are various specifics (especially starting and near marks) where they differ.
flaming
Well-known member
Fundamental misunderstanding here.
RRS absolutely do override colregs between boats who are racing. Full stop. End of discussion.
doris
Well-known member
TLouth7
Active member
Do you have a roller furling genoa? You might find that you would be able to maintain steerage way hove to with a partially furled genoa, with the added bonus that you may be able to tack the genoa across and get it sheeted hard in without using a winch handle. In general when single handed I (and other club members) find it easiest to do the pre-start with no genoa or partially furled, then pull the whole lot out in the final run-up to the line once all the manoeuvres are out of the way.
I suspect Chiara has a rather different ratio of main to genoa sail area which may partly explain why heaving to is such a good tactic for them (plus the fast acceleration).
B27
Well-known member
Tends to become a cheat's charter, older members know they can get away with 'forgetting' basic rules when convenient.Strongly approVe of that sort of racing
With big heavy boats in a breeze, it can get downright dangerous.
Many dinghy sailors who are used to a reasonable level of rules knowledge and observance take one look at club level yacht racing and don't come back.
How can anyone who's spent thousands on a boat and raced for years not know that 'overtaking boat' does not apply between two boats racing?
I've heard it shouted on the water from people who should know better.
I believe some of them do know better and are in fact simple cheats.
Clubs which condone this and encouraging it by not engaging in the protest process are a disgrace to the sport.
Chiara’s slave
Well-known member
Seems to me that all aspiring club racers should find a seat in an XOD for a race or 2. Lots of rules practice, lots of shouting. People who think they can get away with nonsense are soon disabused.
Birdseye
Well-known member
Since colregs are incorporated into statute law I dont see how this can be.
I would love to be able to ignore stutory road speed limits for example.
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Birdseye
Well-known member
That has been my normal practice but I am a bit nervous about it single handed because of the difficulty of keeping an effective look out in a fleet of say 15 boats all approaching the start line whilst unfurling the sail, sheeting it in etc.. As a result I tend to hang back which is the last thing I ever do when fully crewed.
I hate being last across the line but I am at the moment.
DFL1010
Active member
CASE 109
Part 2, Preamble
Rule 56, Fog Signals and Lights; Traffic Separation Schemes
International Regulations for Preventing Collisions at Sea
The IRPCAS or government right-of-way rules apply
between boats that are racing only if a rule in the notice of
race says so, and in that case all of the Part 2 rules are
replaced. An IRPCAS or government rule, other than a
right-of-way rule, may be made to apply by including it in
the notice of race, the sailing instructions or another
document governing the event.
Question 1
What are the ‘government rules’ to which the preamble to Part 2 and rule
56.1 refer? How do those rules differ from the International Regulations for
Preventing Collisions at Sea (IRPCAS)?
Answer 1
The IRPCAS apply only ‘upon the high seas and in all waters connected
therewith navigable by seagoing vessels’ (IRPCAS Rule 1(a)). On a
country’s harbours, rivers, lakes and other inland waters, governments and
other government authorities may establish other rules. Those other rules
are the ‘government rules’ to which the Part 2 preamble and rule 56.1 refer.
Such rules, which may apply nationally on all inland waters or only on
specific inland waters, may restate, replace, change or add to the IRPCAS
(IRPCAS Rules 1(b) and 1(c)).
Question 2
When the notice of race, sailing instructions and other documents that
govern an event do not mention the IRPCAS or government rules, do any
rules of the IRPCAS or government rules apply to a boat racing under The
Racing Rules of Sailing?
Answer 2
Yes. When a boat sailing under the Part 2 rules meets a vessel that is not,
the IRPCAS or government right-of-way rules apply between them (Part 2
preamble).
In addition, a boat racing shall comply with rule 10, Traffic Separation
Schemes, of the IRPCAS (rule 56.2). Finally, if a boat is equipped with
sound signals and lights required by the IRPCAS or applicable government
rules, she shall, while racing, sound those fog signals and show those lights
as required by the IRPCAS or applicable government rules (rule 56.1).
Question 3
May the notice of race, sailing instructions or another document that governs
the event make the IRPCAS or government right-of-way rules or other rules
of the IRPCAS or government rules applicable?
Answer 3
Yes, in three ways:
(1) Only the notice of race may state that the right-of-way rules of the
IRPCAS or government rules replace all of the rules of Part 2 (Part 2
preamble and rule J1.2(12)). This is often done for oceanic races and
also for racing at night.
(2) The notice of race or the sailing instructions may state that a
particular rule from the IRPCAS or government rules (other than a
right-of-way rule) will apply to the event and include the text of that
rule (rule J2.2(29)).
(3) The definition Rule includes ‘(g) any other documents that govern
the event.’ Such a document may include the text of a particular rule
or rules from the IRPCAS or government rules (other than a right-of-
way rule) that will apply to the event. To govern an event, a document
must be listed in the notice of race (rule J1.1(3)), stating where or
how it may be obtained.
A boat that breaks a rule of the IRPCAS or a government rule can always be
prosecuted by an authority responsible for its enforcement, but a protest may
be made under such a rule only when the rule concerned ‘governs the event’.
Question 4
If a rule in the notice of race states that the right-of-way rules of the IRPCAS
replace the rules of Part 2, which rules of Part 2 are replaced by which rules
of the IRPCAS?
Answer 4
All the rules of Part 2 are replaced. Part B of the IRPCAS contains the
IRPCAS ‘Steering and Sailing Rules’, which are, in effect, ‘right-of-way
rules’. However, Part B of the IRPCAS must be read in conjunction with the
whole of the IRPCAS, particularly Part A. For example, many terms used in
Part B are defined in Part A.
Question 5
Is it possible to provide for a wider or narrower range of replacements of
right-of-way rules that apply between competing boats?
Answer 5
The notice of race may only replace all the rules of Part 2 with all the right-
of-way rules of the IRPCAS or government rules. A wider or narrower range
of replacements of right-of-way rules that apply between competing boats
is not permitted (see rule 86.1(b)).
flaming
Well-known member
How do you possibly apply 2 sets of rules at once that differ? For example under RRS if you overtake me to windward I can luff you head to wind if I so choose. Under COLREGS I cannot.
The preamble of the RRS is very, and specifically, clear on the fact that when you are racing, these are the rules that apply between you and other racing boats. And that entrance into a race implies acceptance of that fact.
oldbloke
Well-known member
No analogy is ever exact but ...You may have noticed Messers Hamilton, Verstappen etc al going quite quickly on occasion.
doris
Well-known member
I quite agree, my original comment was tongue in cheek and assumed gentlemanly conduct. Even in the likes of JOG and R Soton there are plenty of ‘competitors‘ who fit your description. Let’s not even talk about RORC if they are flying a white ensign on the way to the start.
B27
Well-known member
Back in the old days of Sydney Harbour Skiffs, they were not under IYRU rules and raced under the colregs and local regulations AIUI.
I would imagine racing under rules where the stand-on vessel is obliged to hold its course would be quite difficult at times.
I would imagine racing under rules where the stand-on vessel is obliged to hold its course would be quite difficult at times.
greeny
Well-known member
Have a look at Jeaneau Sun 2k. 6.5 metres. Lift keel, lift rudder. Sails small enough to be sheeted in by hand most of the time. Just need to extend the jib sheets and add a couple of cleats on the coaming by the helm to cleat the jib sheets without going forward and leaving the tiller. Not sure how it would fit in with the fleet though. No real accommodation though and now i've read your other post it seems you need that.
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Slowtack
Well-known member
Maybe something with SJ in the name??
Birdseye
Well-known member
not on public roads. The difference here is that we are talking the open sea whereindividual country's legal mandate doesnt apply and is replaced by international law.
But that is completely off topic and I am more interested in 10m racing yachts than a barrack room lawyer debate.
