2013 Bavaria 35 Sport HT

[Flynnbarr]

You and others have said that the boat would be worth the same once repaired.No it wouldn't,what happens when the extended warranty finishes? Put it next to an identical one with no 'history',which would you or anyone on here buy?
I think you said on your Azimut thread it's what buyers perceive,it's human nature,rightly or wrongly.
Repair it,keep schutm,punt it on has been mentioned as well.Nice,very gentlemanly.In the car world it's a catD and all that that brings.

As for Bavaria hiding behind the dealer and only wanting to mend it......if it is a legitimate claim....in the court of average joe that is just piss poor and what everyone has come to expect of big business.

 

[Whitelighter]

Yes I agree on buyer perception, but if the boat is repaired, then surveyed and given a clean bill of health there is nothing to declare so no detrimental effect on the value.

With that Azi, had it been possible to remove the gel, dry out the core and regel would that need to be declared? No because the problem has been erased. Sadly while that might have been possible it wasn't financially viable.

So my point re: buyer PoV was selling the azimut with the fault intact, regardless of affecting the functionality of it being a boat. Two distinct and different scenarios. It is possible to repair the Bavaria damage without trace as the de lamination is between the hull and the internal mouldings. Take those mouldings out replace and reglass - this is the process when they build so you won't know the difference.

The cost of doing this is huge but if Bavaria are going to bear that cost then it is of no concern to Doan. And of course you get it resurveyed and warranted by Bavaria after the repair.

I also get his lack of trust in the boat. At least with a repaired boat you have something you can recover a fair bit of your investment out of. I have rejected a boat with some similar issues and some worse faults. It was also a cross border purchase but the main difference was I bought direct from the builder so my contract was with them. Even so I was very very lucky and it almost got incredibly messy and expensive, so I do really sympathise with Doan more than you can probably appreciate.

The trouble is I think all he really wants from the forums is ringing argreement about what bastar ds Bavaria are - not practical advise, especially if it differs with his ultimate desire/aim/goal.
The other danger is that if it transpires this is somehow damaged by a dealer, or transport company or yard then he may lose the offer already on the table.

You can say what you like about 'big business' and ideals etc but boats are a big boys luxury and as buyers we all accept some element of risk. In this case (as in many) it's the solvency of the supplying dealer, the people you have the purchase contract with. It's one of the reasons why I would struggle to get the balls to drop a load of cash on a brand new boat, even a stock boat, without being very very certain of the financial stability of the dealer concerned.

 

[petem]

You and others have said that the boat would be worth the same once repaired.No it wouldn't,what happens when the extended warranty finishes? Put it next to an identical one with no 'history',which would you or anyone on here buy?

All other things being equal you'd take the one that hadn't required repairs. But I'd rather have a boat that's been well repaired by the factory than one that has unrepaired damage.

Repair it,keep schutm,punt it on has been mentioned as well.Nice,very gentlemanly.In the car world it's a catD and all that that brings.

Wrong, CAT D is for cars where "the vehicle is repairable but repair costs are significant compared to the vehicle value". Not the case for this boat.

As for Bavaria hiding behind the dealer and only wanting to mend it......if it is a legitimate claim....in the court of average joe that is just piss poor and what everyone has come to expect of big business.

I believe the dealer is no longer trading.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Which was my point back when all we had was a short narrative with little detail.

Yet apparently I was a c*** for not immediately throwing my weight unconditionally behind the OP.

Tee-hee, is that aimed at me? I do enjoy your mastery of subtle and nuanced posting

 

[Whitelighter]

Tee-hee, is that aimed at me? I do enjoy your mastery of subtle and nuanced posting

Nah, not at all

 

[P4Paul]

You and others have said that the boat would be worth the same once repaired.No it wouldn't,what happens when the extended warranty finishes? Put it next to an identical one with no 'history',which would you or anyone on here buy?
I think you said on your Azimut thread it's what buyers perceive,it's human nature,rightly or wrongly.
Repair it,keep schutm,punt it on has been mentioned as well.Nice,very gentlemanly.In the car world it's a catD and all that that brings.

As for Bavaria hiding behind the dealer and only wanting to mend it......if it is a legitimate claim....in the court of average joe that is just piss poor and what everyone has come to expect of big business.

Right up until Doan posted, this boat fully repaired was worth no less than any other boat of the same spec and age. Doan's postings have reduced the value, not Bavaria's offer of factory repair. To the best of my knowledge, this is a one off issue not a systematic failure of a number of vessels, unless you have other cases you can share?

The more I look, the more something doesn't feel right. Those that know how Bavaria work will recognise that there is an unusual gap in the delivery time.

It wouldn't surprise me if at some point it comes to light that this boat has been dropped, involved in a road traffic accident or squashed in a berthing incident of which Doan may be completely unaware of.

Again, I hope Doan finds a satisfactory solution but I can't help but feel that Bavaria currently are doing everything they should be doing. The fact is that Doan appears to have no issue with the fact Bavaria have offered to repair the boat; his issue is the fact he wants the boat repaired AND wants a discount to compensate for the depreciation he believes the boat will suffer following repair.

I struggle with the whole thing because until Doan starting his Internet posting, his boat had no obvious history. Unfortnately since he started posting, there is a risk that all Bavaria 360 HT Coupe's built have just taken a huge depreciation hit.

I feel sorry for Doan, but I also feel hugely sorry for other 360 HT Coupe owners with no issues whatsoever who are innocently now going to take a hit on their residual values especially if it turns out to be as a result of someone not being brave enough to come clean about an incident or assuming everything was OK after a transport, lifting or berthing accident.

Don't get me wrong, there are still the issues of the fixtures and fittings being poorly installed on the upper saloon table and sliding door as shown in the photos. But they are dealer fixes and while annoying, can be easily fixed at no risk to depreciation.

The sooner the boat ends up with some engineers with access to NDT inspection equpiment to undertake a full appraisal of the hull and inner liner issues, the better all round it will be.

 

[P4Paul]

In the car world it's a catD

'cat D' is an insurance indicator, are you saying that this isn't warranty as Doan is indicating but that you know something happened to make it an insurance issue?

My 2015 car has had a new battery, new software twice and new brake calipers all under warranty. In addition, it has had a new passenger door as a result of a dickhead at a roundabout. When I sell it, do you think these items will make my car worth less than all the others on the market?

 

[Bajansailor]

I cannot comment on the discussion above, but I thought I would just describe a case that I was involved in here a couple of years ago.
I was asked (by the Builder) to have a look at a relatively new (only a few months old) centre console fast motor boat here - it had been built in the USA by a well known manufacturer - it had an inner moulding in the cabin which was bedded down on to the hull, and many joints had sheared / delaminated.
I went and had a look, and sent a brief report with photos to the Builders, and suggested that they should really send one of their guys down here to have a look, as extensive work was required to 'fix' it.
One of their engineers did fly down here, and he was amazed by what he saw. The owner had admitted to thrashing the boat on a recent trip back to Barbados from the islands (a 100 mile passage to windward, against 20 knot tradewinds), but this class of boat was designed / supposed to cope with these sort of conditions.
It had cost the Owner approximately US$ 500,000, and the Builder's engineer agreed with me that the best solution was to ship the boat back to the Builders for further evaluation and possible repair.
They did so, and got the original build crew to take it apart, to look for possible mistakes / short-cuts / corner cutting that had taken place (maybe it was a Friday afternoon job when the inner moulding was installed?).
I was thinking that the Builders would have simply sent the Owner a new boat, but no, they took all the outfit parts off the old boat (she had 3 x 250 hp outboards and an extensive outfit inventory including a very comfortable air conditioned cabin) and fitted them to a new hull - this would apparently cost less than supplying the Owner with a new 'off the shelf' boat, even when allowing for the labour involved in dismantling the old boat.
A peculiar sequence of events happened to cause this (it was a one off as far as I know) yet the Builders cheerfully undertook to put the Owner back into the situation that he was in before (re having an operational boat) with all of his 'old' engines and equipment fitted to a new hull.
And then they shipped the 'new' boat back to Barbados, and I have not heard anything more about it, so I assume that it all ended happily.

 

[aquapower]

The important question of how did the boat get this damage is being avoided by the OP, this indicates that there's something to hide as its been asked several times now and ignored.
A boat doesn't just break up like this with 10 hours use.

 

[vas]

A boat doesn't just break up like this with 10 hours use.

maybe a couple of half hour sessions at WOT slamming against some decent waves with the right period could do it nicely.
Not saying that OP did that, not saying that boat should delaminate like that, but very much possible.
Slipping off the slings is another possibility as from all the videos I've seen boats end up falling (either on the hard, or in the water) at odd angles...

V.

 

[Flynnbarr]

'cat D' is an insurance indicator, are you saying that this isn't warranty as Doan is indicating but that you know something happened to make it an insurance issue?

My 2015 car has had a new battery, new software twice and new brake calipers all under warranty. In addition, it has had a new passenger door as a result of a dickhead at a roundabout. When I sell it, do you think these items will make my car worth less than all the others on the market?

Like everyone else I don't know the cause.
The catD comment was a figure of speech so to speak.Badly worded maybe but it was meant to emphasise that in the car world a new owner knows the history of a vehicle whereas in the boat world history is unknown in respect of any major repairs.And yes I do know you can do some incredible repairs with fibreglass but as said it comes down to buyers perceptions,rightly or wrongly.

And yes Petem,I do know the dealer has gone,I've read the whole thread,I even know what make of boat is being talked about
I fully agree that it has been handled badly by Doan.

 

[petem]

And yes Petem,I do know the dealer has gone,I've read the whole thread,I even know what make of boat is being talked about

Ha ha I asked for that one! There is certainly an argument for a 'Cat' type rating for boats but we'll save that for another thread.

 

[petem]

I was thinking that the Builders would have simply sent the Owner a new boat, but no, they took all the outfit parts off the old boat (she had 3 x 250 hp outboards and an extensive outfit inventory including a very comfortable air conditioned cabin) and fitted them to a new hull - this would apparently cost less than supplying the Owner with a new 'off the shelf' boat, even when allowing for the labour involved in dismantling the old boat.
A peculiar sequence of events happened to cause this (it was a one off as far as I know) yet the Builders cheerfully undertook to put the Owner back into the situation that he was in before (re having an operational boat) with all of his 'old' engines and equipment fitted to a new hull.
And then they shipped the 'new' boat back to Barbados, and I have not heard anything more about it, so I assume that it all ended happily.

It had occurred to me that Bav may do the same. I would be surprised if they bodged the repair as it would open them up to some serious liability issue.

 

[Tranona]

The sooner the boat ends up with some engineers with access to NDT inspection equpiment to undertake a full appraisal of the hull and inner liner issues, the better all round it will be.

Don't think there is any NDT that will help with this damage. From what you can see of the photos it is a failure of the tabbing of the stiffeners and inner moulding to the hull. Not a difficult repair and should be completely invisible when done.

Of course the unresolved issue as a number of people have pointed out - and the OP is avoiding (or does not know) is the cause of the damage. The gap between build date and commissioning raises questions as to what happened to the boat in the meantime. My new Bavaria was delivered to the Hamble 4 days from completion and launched less than 3 weeks later, having been Coppercoated and commissioned.

 

[Whitelighter]

It may have been a dealer stock boat

 

[Tranona]

It may have been a dealer stock boat

Yes, that is possible as DOAN originally ordered a Greenline from the dealer but given they had gone out of business the dealer agreed to offset his (lost?) deposit against the Bavaria. You need to go back over the French thread to tease this out.
.
So the boat was not his first choice which goes some way to explaining his position. Does not, however resolve the cause of the damage, nor whether the Bavaria offer is the best possible solution.

 

[Whitelighter]

Ok, didn't know that. Green line back in business now, And I wonder if that is influence his request for a full refund.

The plot thickens. Perhaps he sees an opportunity to get out if the Bavaria clean and get the green line. Certainly would go someway to explaining his refusal to accept the (to my mind reasonable) offer to repair the boat

 

[diligaf]

The plot thickens........ Still no sign of DOAN though. He has gone remarkably quiet!

 

[P4Paul]

Don't think there is any NDT that will help with this damage. From what you can see of the photos it is a failure of the tabbing of the stiffeners and inner moulding to the hull. Not a difficult repair and should be completely invisible when done.

Of course the unresolved issue as a number of people have pointed out - and the OP is avoiding (or does not know) is the cause of the damage. The gap between build date and commissioning raises questions as to what happened to the boat in the meantime. My new Bavaria was delivered to the Hamble 4 days from completion and launched less than 3 weeks later, having been Coppercoated and commissioned.

I agree, the repair as shown in the photos is straight forward and once completed you wouldn't be able to tell it had been carried out. My reference to NDT was to investigate and isolate the cause of the damage.

Our Bavaria was in the UK within the week of factory completion, it was commissioned and we had handover the following week.
This may have been a stock boat but we know from Doan's posting that the HIN date was May 2015, the delivery date was 10 of July and the hand-over was 17 of August. The dates just don't feel right to me.

 

[KINGFISHER 8]

Remind me ... did he buy this boat new?

I read a test report this morning on a Bavaria 40 HT ... full of praise with words like tough, strong, build quality, solid and so forth.