2 ideas instead of scrapping life jackets etc

I can straight away think of the RNLI/MCA view on a MOB incident turning into reports of multiple, personsless, unattributed LJs floating about possibly for days or weeks afterwards, sucking up SAR resources to prove a negative (that eight people weren’t washed overboard from multiple boats on some dark night). Even if you marked the randomly lobbed jackets,every time one turned up they would a) have to recover it and check it’s yours and b) contact you and re-check how many MOBs you had. “Did you lob over a 1989 Seago blah blah mk 1 with mauve piping or was yours a 1993 Seago blah wotsit with Velcro, sir? If you’re not sure we’ll have to go back out”

LJs wo somebody in them will be blown miles away even if weighted with a kilo or two (versus 80kg person) straight away

If these jackets have lights and the MOB is at night, rescuers might spend ages rounding up flashing empty jackets while the MOB in another flashing jacket passes away.

Hard to say what’s silly idea this is
 
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bitbaltic said:
I can straight away think of the RNLI/MCA view on a MOB incident turning into reports of multiple, personsless, unattributed LJs floating about possibly for days or weeks afterwards, sucking up SAR resources to prove a negative (that eight people weren’t washed overboard from multiple boats on some dark night). Even if you marked the randomly lobbed jackets,every time one turned up they would a) have to recover it and check it’s yours and b) contact you and re-check how many MOBs you had. “Did you lob over a 1989 Seago blah blah mk 1 with mauve piping or was yours a 1993 Seago blah wotsit with Velcro, sir? If you’re not sure we’ll have to go back out”

LJs wo somebody in them will be blown miles away even if weighted with a kilo or two (versus 80kg person) straight away

If these jackets have lights and the MOB is at night, rescuers might spend ages rounding up flashing empty jackets while the MOB in another flashing jacket passes away.

Hard to say what’s silly idea this is
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What about the EXPENSIVE inflatable danbouys etc? By your argument, chuck one over (if you can afford it) and MOB does not need it and it is not recovered...

To get over your objection (and did you say I had a "silly" idea? Difficult to tell with your grammar.) one could do as you imply and record colour, make, number of lifejackets in the stack next to the horseshoe and everything else one chucks over and report it when MOB recovered.

Anyway, it was just an idea, based upon a thread (that I can remember but not find) some months ago about leaving a trail to help find a MOB.

Thanks for your comments.

I also believe in the phrase: "I rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6". Bureaucracy that gets in the way of life saving is not my cup of tea.

I have no intention of ever letting a person on my boat go overboard (I have extensive measures in place), BUT if it did happen, I would do anything (including putting the RNLI and MCA at inconvenience to get back my MOB). I also hate to think of people throwing away out of date lifejackets that usually still work.

PS, the modifications I talked about on the website included stripping all the webbing and buckles off and most velcro and turning it into a tube wrapped in 3 places with wool to make stowage easy and deployment easy, so the final article would not look like a Seago blah blah with purple piping
 
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Danbuoys have far less windage than lifejackets and far less wetted surface to ‘get cruising’, try one out- but even so they are understood to be an approximation. More importantly it is unlikely that the day after your incident a random fisherman will go ob wearing a danbuoy.

Sorry for the autocorrect (which you took for poor grammar)- I think it’s a silly idea; and good ones do not need a bit of ad-hominem to defend them
 
bitbaltic said:
Danbuoys have far less windage than lifejackets and far less wetted surface to ‘get cruising’, try one out- but even so they are understood to be an approximation. More importantly it is unlikely that the day after your incident a random fisherman will go ob wearing a danbuoy.

Sorry for the autocorrect (which you took for poor grammar)- I think it’s a silly idea; and good ones do not need a bit of ad-hominem to defend them
Click to expand...

Thank you again.

I meant jonbouy, apologies for mistake. Was it Alex Thompson that used one in anger not so long ago. How is their wetted surface area and windage? They cost £200. A scrap lj cost £0.

https://www.marinesuperstore.com/li...MIuLW-0NHJ2wIVop3tCh3NBwQVEAQYBSABEgIgh_D_BwE

You say it is a silly idea (I would have used a more polite term). What do others think?

I have absolutely nothing to gain from this idea so I won't be using adhominem. I think that is more in tune with your response.

Could you not have simply left out the word "silly"?
 
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The idea of a trail won't work, as already said, because the lifejackets will blow off far quicker than the MoB. Maybe not in a F2, but why would you need a trail in a F2?

And if you're going to throw additional lifejackets at a MoB in case they help what's wrong with throwing spare in-date ones? Where are you going to keep the old lifejackets anyway until they are needed without mixing them up with the good ones?

Or you could duct tape them to the top of the mast in case of capsize. :)
 
So I go over wearing my LJ and you lob 6 spare LJs at me. You now have 7 LJs in the water to work out which one I'm in... So does the LB and the Helo.
 
lpdsn said:
The idea of a trail won't work, as already said, because the lifejackets will blow off far quicker than the MoB. Maybe not in a F2, but why would you need a trail in a F2?

And if you're going to throw additional lifejackets at a MoB in case they help what's wrong with throwing spare in-date ones? Where are you going to keep the old lifejackets anyway until they are needed without mixing them up with the good ones?

Or you could duct tape them to the top of the mast in case of capsize. :)
Click to expand...

I have already taken the Hammar device from an expired lj and used it and an old buoyancy bag (folded up) to attach to my catamaran dinghy (as the proper inflatable ones cost more than the parts I had and my time).

I don't carry spare in date ljackets. But I have lots of old ones.

I sail single handed and wear a harness, so MOB is of no interest to me; making use of scrap items is a hobby of mine.

I still remember the Clipper MOB video (where the man in a survival suit was recovered well). The video showed him at quite a distance and he was out of sight more than in sight. There is also a lot of lead to be had from the bottom of scrapped liferafts (to help weigh down an empty lifejacket).

I can't find the video. Took 90 minutes to get him back apparently.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?rlz......0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.0.0....0.RIbVmwdDFmQ

Or have I ?


Theory is one thing. Until tested, a lot of ideas do not come to light and some ideas are proved correct and some proved incorrect.

I doubt anyone will test this idea. Just keep scrapping things.
 
Andrew Taylor was rescued because he had a personal AIS. Moreover, it took him some time to get it to work. During that period the boat searched fruitlessly and had little or no idea where he was. Only when he turned it on and they got the signal were they able to begin an effective operation (BTW I did the RORC series a few years ago with someone who was on the boat, so I know how uncertain they felt until that AIS came in).

Pretty sure nothing other than his AIS (and the LJ he was actually wearing) saved him, and no amount of inflatable things off the transom would be relevant.
 
bitbaltic said:
Andrew Taylor was rescued because he had a personal AIS. Moreover, it took him some time to get it to work. During that period the boat searched fruitlessly Yes, because he could not be seenand had little or no idea where he was. The point I am trying to address Only when he turned it on and they got the signal were they able to begin an effective operation (BTW I did the RORC series a few years ago with someone who was on the boat, so I know how uncertain they felt until that AIS came in).

Pretty sure nothing other than his AIS (and the LJ he was actually wearing) saved him, and no amount of inflatable things off the transom would be relevant.
Click to expand...

I think the dry suit had a large part in saving him. Recovering a dead body from hypothermia is not nice.

Tie the scrap lifejackets together and attach scrap lead and drogues. If shot over the side quick enough (as they have been modified into cylinders and released consecutively) via a tube , the MOB may even grab one. As he dips out of sight, a scrap one is one the crest of the wave?

It is at least something to consider a little longer than 5 minutes before calling it silly.

Now an AIS that has lots of money spent on it and cannot be turned on easily or water activated...? Is that a silly design?
 
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bitbaltic said:
As a positive comment, consider attaching drogues to your LJs, you would then be more comparable to the jonbuoy, which has one.

Note that it’s you, not me, who considers the jonbuoy effective.
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Well, it is nicer than you writing: "Hard to say what a silly idea this is" in #2

The drogue idea was mentioned in one of the ybw links I posted. Credit to whoever posted it.

Did I say I thought the jonbouy effective? I don't think I did. I can't be bothered to go back and look.

I think it is an expensive piece of kit that can be replaced with a £0 scrap lifejacket, but you said it is a silly idea.

Anyway, I only mentioned it in case anyone thought it was a good idea and thought they could make use of their scrap ljs.

I have nothing to gain except the good feeling that I may have helped someone if the idea worked.

I also have nothing to gain by telling people that suphuric acid from batteries with a dead cell can clean metal.

I will leave this thread now because it is not giving me any joy.

I was only suggesting an idea.

I have a lot to learn.
 
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If you want my opinion..... ( loud chorus of 'Not on your nellie!' ) I believe it interesting and every-now-and-then useful to have a long look at the many 'unthunk assumptions' we have in our boating. I'd encourage more of that....

F'r example, consider the horseshoe life ring thing. Most of us have two of them. Have you even tried to throw one to 'someone who's fallen overboard' while you sail along'? Have you any idea how very far from a MOB that's probably going to be? Trials, lots of them, show the reality.

There are those who suggest they could act as 'a marker', for the general location. In lumpy seas, 'general location' is far from good enough, as the Andrew Taylor report/vid above illustrates. And, if you think you'll want a marker, then have a marker.

Better still, have two.

Deploy one right away. If the MOB is not close enough to do a 'crash tack' and round up right adjacent, don't immediately change heading. Count to, say, 15 - then deploy a second marker. The two of them will give you not a 'general location' but a Leading Line back to the MOB. Sail/motor up that, just a little to windward to allow something for any leeway you may have made, and you will pass very close to the MOB.

Then a Throw Bag is likely to find the target better than a wind-blown horseshoe thing.

Just a thought..... ;)
 
Sailingsaves said:
I don't carry spare in date ljackets. But I have lots of old ones.
Click to expand...

How do you know how many you need? I normally sail two or three up, but can have more for some trips. Last year one crew asked at the last minute if his three kids (teenagers to undergrad) could come. They did, I had enough spare lifejackets and it was a good trip.
 
Sailingsaves said:
Well, it is nicer than you writing: "Hard to say what a silly idea this is" in #2

The drogue idea was mentioned in one of the ybw links I posted. Credit to whoever posted it.

Did I say I thought the jonbouy effective? I don't think I did. I can't be bothered to go back and look.

I think it is an expensive piece of kit that can be replaced with a £0 scrap lifejacket, but you said it is a silly idea.

Anyway, I only mentioned it in case anyone thought it was a good idea and thought they could make use of their scrap ljs.

I have nothing to gain except the good feeling that I may have helped someone if the idea worked.

I also have nothing to gain by telling people that suphuric acid from batteries with a dead cell can clean metal.

I will leave this thread now because it is not giving me any joy.

I was only suggesting an idea.

I have a lot to learn.
Click to expand...

I’m not knocking you. You put up an idea in good faith for sure. Others don’t think it works. Life is like that sometimes, have a glass of wine and cheers.
 
zoidberg said:
If you want my opinion..... ( loud chorus of 'Not on your nellie!' ) I believe it interesting and every-now-and-then useful to have a long look at the many 'unthunk assumptions' we have in our boating. I'd encourage more of that....

F'r example, consider the horseshoe life ring thing. Most of us have two of them. Have you even tried to throw one to 'someone who's fallen overboard' while you sail along'? Have you any idea how very far from a MOB that's probably going to be? Trials, lots of them, show the reality.

There are those who suggest they could act as 'a marker', for the general location. In lumpy seas, 'general location' is far from good enough, as the Andrew Taylor report/vid above illustrates. And, if you think you'll want a marker, then have a marker.

Better still, have two.

Deploy one right away. If the MOB is not close enough to do a 'crash tack' and round up right adjacent, don't immediately change heading. Count to, say, 15 - then deploy a second marker. The two of them will give you not a 'general location' but a Leading Line back to the MOB. Sail/motor up that, just a little to windward to allow something for any leeway you may have made, and you will pass very close to the MOB.

Then a Throw Bag is likely to find the target better than a wind-blown horseshoe thing.

Just a thought..... ;)
Click to expand...

My choice (several years ago) was to put a PLB on every in service LJ (five of them). Recent experience shows activating a PLB in British coastal waters can result in rescue within 2 hours (rambler 100, 2011 Fastnet; a MOB from a rib a couple of years later off Pembrokeshire). If the MOB is consistently transmitting position to SAR that’s priceless.

That was a little before auto AIS beacons came out. If I was kitting out now I would put the smallest possible AIS beacon (ACR) inside the jacket alongside the PLB. The best chance of regaining (not necessarily recovering) a MOB still belongs to the mother vessel. The reason I haven’t got them is that the LJs won’t pack back with anything more inside.

The latest version of our LJs (Secumar AX) has a dedicated PLB pocket. When ours expire I will get those and fit both systems. I have given up waiting for the mythical solution that is the combined beacon (sea angel?), and sceptical because none of the major manufacturers seem to be pushing one.

Of course we carry all the rest of it (horseshoe, throwing line, rescue line, handy billy, spare halyards etc) but decades of yachting experience shows most of that to be nearly useless, and I have done enough sailing offshore in big wind at night to know that if someone goes ob and it’s down to the mother ship and mk 1 eyeball they’re basically dead.

None of this outweighs the principle that the best MOB system is prevention of course
 
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