Volvo TAMD 73/74 and 75 ECU - Cause for concern?

[DavidJ]

a tad expensive at 4K euro, innit?

Plus import duty of some kind plus delivery

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

Thank god everyone tells you go get Volvo cause parts are easy and so on.

I can get parts for a fifty year old Cats / Cummins / Detroit GM / Iveco without a hitch....

This will be another nail in the coffin for Volvo while they are riding high up the wave.
But the signs how they are losing the sub fifteen meter market to outboards in the USA are all to see.

It will be interesting when they do something similar to the big IPS boats in a not so distant future....

 

[Megs20Burt!]

Having followed this thread for a while, can I ask some questions?

1. How many engines of this type have been sold & installed on boats? Is it hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands?
2. What is the failure rate as a % of the installed base?
3. Is there a registry of these engines available?
4. Is there published advice on risk mitigation and is there information on possible causes of the failure? Is it a ‘batch’ problem or are all engines at risk?
5. Is the industry aware of this issue? If so, for how long?
6. Has the industry lobbied VP on behalf of VP owners? If not, why not?

looking at this, and correct me if I am wrong, this has the potential to destroy global reputations and lead to legal action if an unsuspecting boat owner purchased a VP engined boat with theses engines installed and nobody told them of the potential risk of ECU failure and the impossibility of getting spares to fix the issue.

It will only take 1 disgruntled owner with some £ and a perchant for suing people to kick it off. Then the genie is out of the bottle.

It would appear that Mike & Paul seem to be ploughing a solo furrow and against the tide of corporate intransigence.

As an owner of a VP engined boat, I am sure that at some point, if VP are not challenged, my engine series will be next on the list, surely an organised collective voice may move VP to address the issue?

I am not suggesting taking to the streets, but what can the British marine industry do to lobby VP on behalf of the boat selling industry and customers who have invested in VP products?

 

[Shifty]

Having followed this thread for a while, can I ask some questions?
I’m afraid i
1. How many engines of this type have been sold & installed on boats? Is it hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands?
2. What is the failure rate as a % of the installed base?
3. Is there a registry of these engines available?
4. Is there published advice on risk mitigation and is there information on possible causes of the failure? Is it a ‘batch’ problem or are all engines at risk?
5. Is the industry aware of this issue? If so, for how long?
6. Has the industry lobbied VP on behalf of VP owners? If not, why not?

looking at this, and correct me if I am wrong, this has the potential to destroy global reputations and lead to legal action if an unsuspecting boat owner purchased a VP engined boat with theses engines installed and nobody told them of the potential risk of ECU failure and the impossibility of getting spares to fix the issue.

It will only take 1 disgruntled owner with some £ and a perchant for suing people to kick it off. Then the genie is out of the bottle.

It would appear that Mike & Paul seem to be ploughing a solo furrow and against the tide of corporate intransigence.

As an owner of a VP engined boat, I am sure that at some point, if VP are not challenged, my engine series will be next on the list, surely an organised collective voice may move VP to address the issue?

I am not suggesting taking to the streets, but what can the British marine industry do to lobby VP on behalf of the boat selling industry and customers who have invested in VP products?

 

[Shifty]

It is a disgrace. My previous boat had 74ps. In the 20 years I owned it l had to have both ECU changed, so to my mind Volvo
must be fully aware of the on going problem.
lf and when boat shows open ,I think a few disgruntled customers outside the stand with appropriate worded placards may sharpen their minds.

 

[Portofino]

Having followed this thread for a while, can I ask some questions?

1. How many engines of this type have been sold & installed on boats? Is it hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands?
2. What is the failure rate as a % of the installed base?
3. Is there a registry of these engines available?
4. Is there published advice on risk mitigation and is there information on possible causes of the failure? Is it a ‘batch’ problem or are all engines at risk?
5. Is the industry aware of this issue? If so, for how long?
6. Has the industry lobbied VP on behalf of VP owners? If not, why not?

looking at this, and correct me if I am wrong, this has the potential to destroy global reputations and lead to legal action if an unsuspecting boat owner purchased a VP engined boat with theses engines installed and nobody told them of the potential risk of ECU failure and the impossibility of getting spares to fix the issue.

It will only take 1 disgruntled owner with some £ and a perchant for suing people to kick it off. Then the genie is out of the bottle.

It would appear that Mike & Paul seem to be ploughing a solo furrow and against the tide of corporate intransigence.

As an owner of a VP engined boat, I am sure that at some point, if VP are not challenged, my engine series will be next on the list, surely an organised collective voice may move VP to address the issue?

I am not suggesting taking to the streets, but what can the British marine industry do to lobby VP on behalf of the boat selling industry and customers who have invested in VP products?

It’s gotta be VP “ intransigence “ because as I have already said in the auto industry alternatives emerge like Hills engineering for known Ferrari ( and others- but started manufacturing out of supply F parts ) .
The mother manufacturer is ok with this as I said it reduces there inventory storage costs etc at the factory .
Whilst they do not openly endorse like allow Ferrari packaging , they do not fight it indeed openly share any data with the new manufacturers.Eg the tensioner bearings the “ Hills bearings “ are fitted by F dealers and F turn a blind eye .
Its a sort of symbiotic relationship that emerges .
Good for customers, good for dealers ( service centres ) good for the mother brand image .

Win ,win ,win all round .

Lots of other parts eg the plastic bonnet catch becomes brittle a unique part so they give the dims over and a bright spark machines metal , un breakable ,satin black indistinguishable from OEM .

Even a Brummie MGB , new wings fuel tanks manufactured to spec .BL died decades ago but parts for the B series 1.8 are available and cheap .

I know this VP ECU is hard where and soft where , but same remanufacturing after market principles apply but require VP igniting , starting the ball rolling or NOT blocking it .
It could be the improved on placed in a remote box on dry boards ( bin the potting ) and necessary unbiblicals ....even better connector plugs etc .
VP need to hand over via the subcontractor the software to interested parties .

The upgrade kit could be sold to the 100 k + users to retro fit rather than wait for a ECU issue .

As time goes by its becomes a resale must on the sales spec
eg VP 74 s 480 Hp fitted ECU ( insert name ) upgrade kits .Buyers go looking for this and VP integrity of ubiquitous parts supply and an agent in every marina world wide is upheld

Social media is it going away in-terms of background info .Needs to be + ve .

 

[Portofino]

@ Megs 20 Burt ^^ , can’t see “suing “ being the answer here .
Its not a manufacturer legal duty to support old obsolete kit unless you happen to have a contract for such .
You need to befriend VP and Nira and other subcontractors in order to extract the important specs .

They will argue take the re power route with the 2021 version , and its un feasible for a manufacturer to support ad infinitum once the engine is discontinued.

 

[westernman]

This kind of thing is going to get far worse in the future.

Already ECUs for vehicles have a unique identity, and that is used to encrypt the software stored in the programmable non-volatile memory (Flash). So even if you can download the software, it is of no use to you unless you can clone the identity of the ECU. This may be supplied by some kind of add on chip (a bit like a SIM for a phone), or use a PUF (a unique physical characteristic which is unique to that single chip). This is of course to prevent unauthorized modification of the software. (This is understandable - it stops some clever clogs getting 1000HP plus out of a Volvo D12, then after it blows up, putting back the original software and claiming under warranty).

Going forward, the communication between components such as sensors and actuators is likely to be encrypted as well. And the encryption used will be unique to the installation. The sensors and actuators will be uncloneable as well.

This means, that independent after market parts will be impossible. You would have to replace the entire electronics and electrics.

What looks like a simple sensor with just a single wire connection (ground provided by the motor block or whatever), is potentially a computer device which is powered over that wire and uses that wire for two way digital communication (Google PSI5). This is of course to makes it impossible to over-fuel an engine by simply faking a sensor output. It also means that the sensor can have a unique ID, and that changing the sensor means that an update is required to the ECU to talk to that sensor. This won't be possible by an independent supplier.

So what does this mean for power boats in the future?

I think you had all better take up sailing.

 

[Megs20Burt!]

@ Megs 20 Burt ^^ , can’t see “suing “ being the answer here .
Its not a manufacturer legal duty to support old obsolete kit unless you happen to have a contract for such .
You need to befriend VP and Nira and other subcontractors in order to extract the important specs .

They will argue take the re power route with the 2021 version , and its un feasible for a manufacturer to support ad infinitum once the engine is discontinued.

Don’t disagree with your comment.

However, if a dealer sells a boat to a new owner and knows that the engine cannot be repaired and would need major surgery and/or replacement should anything go wrong with the ECU which is a known industry issue, then it becomes a different situation.

How would a dealer feel if they had to advertise that were selling a boat with VP engines that in the event of an ECU failure, would render the boat useless and would need £spent on re-power or otherwise?

How would that affect the selling price? Or the previous owner trade-in value was very low due to the problem?

It’s essentially ‘mis-selling‘ a product unless the seller states the problem upfront to the buyer if the issue is known within the industry. Whilst any legal issue would be fraught with problems, the PR generated could affect the boat selling industry.

Hence my questions as to the extent of the problem, are we talking about a few boats or thousands?

 

[volvopaul]

Having followed this thread for a while, can I ask some questions?

1. How many engines of this type have been sold & installed on boats? Is it hundreds, thousands or tens of thousands?
2. What is the failure rate as a % of the installed base?
3. Is there a registry of these engines available?
4. Is there published advice on risk mitigation and is there information on possible causes of the failure? Is it a ‘batch’ problem or are all engines at risk?
5. Is the industry aware of this issue? If so, for how long?
6. Has the industry lobbied VP on behalf of VP owners? If not, why not?

looking at this, and correct me if I am wrong, this has the potential to destroy global reputations and lead to legal action if an unsuspecting boat owner purchased a VP engined boat with theses engines installed and nobody told them of the potential risk of ECU failure and the impossibility of getting spares to fix the issue.

It will only take 1 disgruntled owner with some £ and a perchant for suing people to kick it off. Then the genie is out of the bottle.

It would appear that Mike & Paul seem to be ploughing a solo furrow and against the tide of corporate intransigence.

As an owner of a VP engined boat, I am sure that at some point, if VP are not challenged, my engine series will be next on the list, surely an organised collective voice may move VP to address the issue?

I am not suggesting taking to the streets, but what can the British marine industry do to lobby VP on behalf of the boat selling industry and customers who have invested in VP products?

You have made quite a few valid points but it doesn’t just stop with this EDC part shortage .
With these green engines you can go back a lot further by stating that older boats with the 60 series engines can be rendered in the same bracket as items like heat exchangers and coolers are now obsolete on the parts epc , I can think of many boats I have worked on and still do that one day will be the same headache as this current situation .
Trying to number crunch the amount of engines affected it’s probably easier to list the make and model of many UK built boats off the top of my head that use this ECU .

Princess , 45, 48, 470, 480, 50, 500, 52, 42, 40 some had the 73p, I’m sure I’ve missed a few .v40,v42, v46, v50.
sealine , s37, s38, s41, s42, S43, F36, F37, F43 ,T51.
Fairline , targa 37, 40, 43, 48. Phantom 43,46.

I spoke to Mike yesterday with a view to a fix on this particular boat , he has heard nothing from the manufacturer at all.

 

[Megs20Burt!]

So, in line with V Paul’s comments. Taking a look around the marina where my boat is berthed, there are a large number of boats that fit into his list. I am sure that this would be replicated in every marina across the country. Can you imagine the impact on the boating industry If these engines begin to fail at an increasing rate?

It is impossible for VP to support engines over an extensive period, but they can partner with indies who are given the authority to manufacture pattern parts to OEM spec. This happens in the aircraft, car and bike industry.

To put this into perspective, my next boat which will be a new one will not have VP engines, that’s a lost customer for a manufacturer that needs new engine sales. With the advent of O/B engine sales into bigger boats and the resultant lower cost of maintenance cost over the life of the boat, that’s where I will go.

For many of us that do not do big hours, this seems a sensible way forward.

I cannot understand how a global manufacturer can not see how something like this can become a serious threat to a company...

 

[kashurst]

I strongly suspect Volvo will just ride out any bad publicity from this. Volvo Penta is not the same company as Volvo cars. And the leisure marine industry is relatively tiny and pretty exclusive. No-one outside the business will be interested.
It is not possible for any manufacturer to support a previous generation of product indefinitely. There are legal EU requirements but I think its either 7 or maybe 10 years. These engines are all older than that.
Metal and plastic parts can be re-manufactured relatively easily - albeit not neccessarily cheaply. Metal and Plastic 3D printers can copy most things. Anything else, 3D scan it and stick a lump of metal in a CNC milling machine. So heat exchangers, casting etc could be obtained via prototying companies and made either as one part or fabricated from several parts.

Electronics is more difficult because of the software. The electronics technology back in the 1990s when these ECUs were designed was very limited compared to todays technology. The software in these ECUs was probably written in assembler, not C or other high level compilable language. The common rail D series engines can be run from off the shelf automotive modern ECUs. But the early EDC series engines will need something specific because of the bosch injection pumps.

Has anyone approached any of the independent ECU companies making systems for race cars etc to see if they would take on a new design?

 

[PowerYachtBlog]

I would think some of the guys who make the kits of ECU kits in order to stage a motor bike or a car could / redo or even improve these ECUs.

Going to my motor bike (Harley) realm I have over a dozen options to change and upgrade my ECU. So why not in marine engines?

 

[simonfraser]

Some one setup a Kickstarter project ?

 

[vas]

kickstarter for actually building the ECU or primarily for paying liabilities to the first few customers that their engines go pop?

 

[jon and michie]

Would you buy a Volvo Penta engine today?

Definitely think twice on second hand boat - there seems to be a few flaws in volvo units - I am sure there is in other manufacturers but not much mentioned on this forum other than volvo.

If buying brand new I would seriously consider other options and volvo unit would definitely be a the bottom of the list.

Just my opinion

Jon

 

[andy59]

The thing is we have all grumbled over the years on VP prices but sucked it up because they usually have stuff in stock to get us going again, but this situation maybe a game changer for VP regarding parts network reputation. To be fair VP have not said they “won’t “ make replacement ecu’s yet but the lack of response isn’t promising. If they don’t make them and won’t give out their software info to help a 3rd party manufacturer, then it could be that they are actively trying to get rid of older diesel motors hoping that we need nice shiny new ones, well it won’t be a Volvo!.

 

[volvopaul]

The thing is we have all grumbled over the years on VP prices but sucked it up because they usually have stuff in stock to get us going again, but this situation maybe a game changer for VP regarding parts network reputation. To be fair VP have not said they “won’t “ make replacement ecu’s yet but the lack of response isn’t promising. If they don’t make them and won’t give out their software info to help a 3rd party manufacturer, then it could be that they are actively trying to get rid of older diesel motors hoping that we need nice shiny new ones, well it won’t be a Volvo!.

Something on the line of

“ It’s 21 years old what do you expect from it “ well the rest of the engine is perfect plus they still market just about every other part for that model of engine to fully overhaul it back to new , the statement was pathetic especially when I look back how many I’ve purchased over the years and how many edc faults in recent times I have had to attend to .

 

[jon and michie]

However you look at it yes its an older engine however if volvo aren't forth coming with any help either manufacture themselves or allowing 3rd party manufacture - that really is bad customer care.

 

[westernman]

However you look at it yes its an older engine however if volvo aren't forth coming with any help either manufacture themselves or allowing 3rd party manufacture - that really is bad customer care.

Yes. And the big reason why people chose Volvo was the idea that you could get it fixed anywhere in the world with parts in stock and rapidly available. People were prepared to put up with expensive parts in order to be able to fix their motor rapidly.

So we now see that that service promise is bull shit. They don't care about engines which are 20 years old. Which in the pleasure boat market is not old.

Gardner for a time in the 1930s offered a life time warranty. It was not cheap at the time. A boat in my marina had a brand new Gardner installed in the 1930s when it was built and had bought the warranty. In the 1990s, it had engine problems. They called up Gardner and they came to the boat and fixed it. Under warranty! I think it got new cylinder liners, new pistons and new valves. I.e. basically a rebuild.

That is service. People will pay for good service. And will rapidly drop you if they have paid for it and you don't deliver.

I think Volvo Penta have lost direction. Neglecting TAMD 73/74/75 users, if this case is fairly common, could be enough to finish off their leading position in the market. I think this may turn out to be their Ratner moment.