90/180 days

[BurnitBlue]

No problem at all, couldn't agree more...sadly 1984 is forever...
What is happening day to day is good info, but unfortunately
not to be relied on imho as one never knows when a law enforcement officer has been given a hard time by his wife.
Re reading my post with sailaboutvic comment, I apologise if it was taken as a directive, it is not meant that way,an certainly not against you.
My apologies.

One thing learned from military service is that rules can only be effective IF a certain percentage of the targets obey them. I am refering to non-victim rules. Overstaying a holiday for instance injures no one. Therefore if everyone deliberately overstayed and the EU applied a ban on future visits the howls from Greece and Spain and just about everyone else in the EU would cause a very quick change of rule or a complete blind eye.
It happens all the time with curfews when populations swarm through the streets. What to do, shoot them?

 

[sailaboutvic]

As To my 179# this year she the only case I heard off and she was only turned away , no fine , no ban ,
the few cruisers that I personally know that returned back after over staying have so far had no problems although only one as returned without any thing Said so only time will tell if others will be question on their return trip.

I known US and Canadian cruisers in Greece ( going back some years now ) that were given extra 90 days when they ask for it without too much of a problem ,
Zakynthos town PP was well known the place to go .

We all have to wait and see if countries tighten up on the rules or slacken them ,
Especially places like Portugal and Greece .

 

[Graham376]

We all have to wait and see if countries tighten up on the rules or slacken them ,
Especially places like Portugal and Greece .

My guess is there's likely going to be conflict between countries who need tourist income and the Commission who are sticklers for rules.

Portuguese authorities are still in chaos with reorganisation after SEF officers beat an immigrant to death. Most of 2020 late residence applications still not dealt with and so far haven't heard of any deportations.

 

[sailaboutvic]

It's Spain people need to watch ,
I think different part of Spain , conflict rule will apply .
Italy/ Sicily seen lay back at the moment .
Greece got a lot to lose if people do as they did this year and head for Turkey .
Portugal well you know what's going on there then me .
South of France is an interesting one ,
Last three season we sailed there , there wasn't many third world countries boats about ,
most will only spend a few months any way.

 

[greeny]

It's Spain people need to watch ,
I think different part of Spain , conflict rule will apply .
Italy/ Sicily seen lay back at the moment .
Greece got a lot to lose if people do as they did this year and head for Turkey .
Portugal well you know what's going on there then me .
South of France is an interesting one ,
Last three season we sailed there , there wasn't many third world countries boats about ,
most will only spend a few months any way.

Yes I agree Vic. Very much a country by country thing and even airport by airport in some cases.
Who'd go to France with a boat right now anyway. With all that's going on and currently being threatened.

 

[dslittle]

It's Spain people need to watch ,
Greece got a lot to lose if people do as they did this year and head for Turkey .
South of France is an interesting one ,

I agree.

My parents lived in Spain and the day to day bureaucracy was incredible. The most interesting thing was the number of road traffic ‘fines’ issued when the Province ‘needed’ money (and that was pre-Brexit…)

Just been to Greece (not sailing this time) and the local people we spoke to were VERY happy to have tourists back and were less than enthusiastic about the EU (who knows if that will be reflected by their elected representatives as Brexit kicks in)

We keep our yacht in France. Our Marina and the local Prefecture couldn’t have helped enough to facilitate Residency status. From the initial application to the appointment for the biometrics was a month and I know of others who were even quicker. I think that the population of ’our’ Department has gone up a lot (a cynic might think that is a good thing for them IF they get funding based on population…). They want yachties to stay. That being said, I don’t think that ALL Prefectures have been as accommodating.

As a result, we can sail as we like in France and still have 90/180 for the rest of Europe (I haven’t even bothered to find out if our French ‘Residency’ entitles us to move freely around the Schengen area as it will be irrelevant to us as we will return to the UK as well).. The only thing that we have to watch is not to spend over 183 days in France, purely for taxation purposes.

Others on here know the Portuguese situation well and have passed on their knowledge.

I do think that things will settle down in due course but it will take a bit of time and pragmatism !!!

 

[westernman]

One thing learned from military service is that rules can only be effective IF a certain percentage of the targets obey them. I am refering to non-victim rules. Overstaying a holiday for instance injures no one. Therefore if everyone deliberately overstayed and the EU applied a ban on future visits the howls from Greece and Spain and just about everyone else in the EU would cause a very quick change of rule or a complete blind eye.
It happens all the time with curfews when populations swarm through the streets. What to do, shoot them?

That is the "they need us more than we need them" argument.
I think you will be sorely disappointed.

As a result, we can sail as we like in France and still have 90/180 for the rest of Europe (I haven’t even bothered to find out if our French ‘Residency’ entitles us to move freely around the Schengen area as it will be irrelevant to us as we will return to the UK as well).. The only thing that we have to watch is not to spend over 183 days in France, purely for taxation purposes.

Check out the consequences of being resident in France.
It is not as bad as it is reputed to be.

You might find out that your taxes are actually less.
Also for investments there are interesting schemes where you can avoid paying capital gains and income taxes on dividends for European companies.

 

[nortada]

My guess is there's likely going to be conflict between countries who need tourist income and the Commission who are sticklers for rules.

Portuguese authorities are still in chaos with reorganisation after SEF officers beat an immigrant to death. Most of 2020 late residence applications still not dealt with and so far haven't heard of any deportations.

Additionally, in Portugal, the issue of EU biometric residence permits, that will be required to interact with the Schengen database when Brits, resident in Portugal, enter and leave the Schengen Zone, has yet to commence. I am advised that the issue of these permits could start ‘sometime in 2022’.

As the introduction date for the SIS database also continues to slip back, it will be interesting to see which will be introduced first.

 

[greeny]

I agree.

The only thing that we have to watch is not to spend over 183 days in France, purely for taxation purposes.

I don't want to thread drift onto tax matters but just for information -
In Portugal they technically will not give you residence status if you don't intend to live there full time. There is a restriction on how long you can be out of the country in the first year of residence and it's only a few weeks if I remember correctly. So it follows automatically that if you are resident you should report your tax there.
I know that many have chosen not to do this but it is an issue when and if they catch up with you, as a three of my friends have found out and are now having to report up to 10 years previous tax at the tax office's demand, dependant on when the residence started.

 

[syvictoria]

One thing learned from military service is that rules can only be effective IF a certain percentage of the targets obey them. I am refering to non-victim rules. Overstaying a holiday for instance injures no one. Therefore if everyone deliberately overstayed and the EU applied a ban on future visits the howls from Greece and Spain and just about everyone else in the EU would cause a very quick change of rule or a complete blind eye.
It happens all the time with curfews when populations swarm through the streets. What to do, shoot them?

Okay, on that basis, who's for stopping paying tax...?!!!

 

[jordanbasset]

I don't want to thread drift onto tax matters but just for information -
In Portugal they technically will not give you residence status if you don't intend to live there full time. There is a restriction on how long you can be out of the country in the first year of residence and it's only a few weeks if I remember correctly. So it follows automatically that if you are resident you should report your tax there.
I know that many have chosen not to do this but it is an issue when and if they catch up with you, as a three of my friends have found out and are now having to report up to 10 years previous tax at the tax office's demand, dependant on when the residence started.

Certainly when I looked into it in Spain you needed to stay at least 183 days each year or you would lose residency

 

[Clancy Moped]

Certainly when I looked into it in Spain you needed to stay at least 183 days each year or you would lose residency

Correct!

 

[BurnitBlue]

Okay, on that basis, who's for stopping paying tax...?!!!

OK i wrote about consensus needing a minimum percentage to work with my tongue in cheek. Regarding tax that is deducted at source from the pay check, an even less percentage is needed to ensure compliance among the rest.. There is little choice. Forcing the population into compliance is a trap lazy politicians can fall into. Yellow vest anybody? Computers and ETAIS make it appear easy even against tourists who are spending money as tourists do . With tax there is no choice but with 90/180 there is a choice. If people realise that it is a hassle to follow the EU rule they can opt out and go somewhere else. Their choice.

Also if the EU think that countries like Greece who spend millions in advertising trying to get tourists into their country are going to be happy about the EU fining "their" tourist for spending a minute past midnight into day 91 while they are still busy spending money and agreeing that the EU can ban them for the next five years as punishment is a myth. Today as always there has been that 90 day compliance to declare but was largely ignored because it could be. In my opinion, ETAIS is a mistake which will not allow anyone to ignore it with automatic bio readers, But will cause them to stay away instead of risk it.

 

[billskip]

Okay, on that basis, who's for stopping paying tax...?!!!

And tv licence..and...and..

 

[nortada]

In my opinion, ETAIS is a mistake which will not allow anyone to ignore it with automatic bio readers, But will cause them to stay away instead of risk it.

By not yet issuing any bio permits, it would appear that Portugal may have found a novel solution to this issue.?

 

[BurnitBlue]

I don't want to thread drift onto tax matters but just for information -
In Portugal they technically will not give you residence status if you don't intend to live there full time. There is a restriction on how long you can be out of the country in the first year of residence and it's only a few weeks if I remember correctly. So it follows automatically that if you are resident you should report your tax there.
I know that many have chosen not to do this but it is an issue when and if they catch up with you, as a three of my friends have found out and are now having to report up to 10 years previous tax at the tax office's demand, dependant on when the residence started.

Agreed 100%. I almost came a cropper when, after Brexit, i had to apply formally for residence despite living there for over twenty years. Sweden is cashless and movements can be checked with bank statement and visa card usage. I thought I was Ok because I thought absence of 6 month was OK leaving me in Sweden for 183 dsys. Wrong again apparantly, my visa card to pay for the airport bus indicated my usual 6 month trip to Greece. This was during the interview. I said it was just picking up a friend from the airport. Who? I was asked. I stared at her in disbelief. "Do you really want to know that?" She replied "not really but I do have boxes to tick, so no absence over 6 weeks. Next question ... and so the interview continued successfully. This proved my point that rules are a get out clause and a excuse to get rid of people they do not want. Same with the undocumeted 90/180 before ETAIS where Nelsons blind eye was an official tactic.

Six weeks when somehow I thought I was allowed six month. Wow.,

 

[shan]

I don't want to thread drift onto tax matters but just for information -
In Portugal they technically will not give you residence status if you don't intend to live there full time. There is a restriction on how long you can be out of the country in the first year of residence and it's only a few weeks if I remember correctly. So it follows automatically that if you are resident you should report your tax there.
I know that many have chosen not to do this but it is an issue when and if they catch up with you, as a three of my friends have found out and are now having to report up to 10 years previous tax at the tax office's demand, dependant on when the residence started.

There's a difference between Right to Residence/Temprorary residence, Permanent Residence and Long Term residence.

Rights and duties of a residence permit holder – The Official Website of Portuguese Immigration

• The holder of a temporary Residence Permit who intends to be absent from Portugal, during the validity period, for a timeframe exceeding six consecutive months or eight unsequential months has a duty to inform SEF before leaving national territory
• The holder of a permanent Residence Permit who intends to be absent from Portugal, for a period exceeding twenty four consecutive months or, in a timeframe of three years, be absent thirty unsequential months, has a duty to inform SEF before leaving national territory
• The holder of any other Long Term Residence Title, may not be absent from European Union territory for a period equal to or exceeding 12 consecutive months, or from national territory for a period equal to or exceeding six consecutive years, failing which the loss of such title may ensue.

 

[nortada]

I don't want to thread drift onto tax matters -

This thread is about the 90 in 180 day Schengen rule, which is common across the EU.

Tax law is down to individual states and so varies significantly across the EU so by drifting this thread into taxation all commonality will so be lost and the thread will descend into a miasma of comparisons, contradictions and confusion.

Possibly a better solution would be to leave this topic on 90/180 and a discussion on taxation the subject of a new thread.

 

[greeny]

There's a difference between Right to Residence/Temprorary residence, Permanent Residence and Long Term residence.

Rights and duties of a residence permit holder – The Official Website of Portuguese Immigration

• The holder of a temporary Residence Permit who intends to be absent from Portugal, during the validity period, for a timeframe exceeding six consecutive months or eight unsequential months has a duty to inform SEF before leaving national territory
• The holder of a permanent Residence Permit who intends to be absent from Portugal, for a period exceeding twenty four consecutive months or, in a timeframe of three years, be absent thirty unsequential months, has a duty to inform SEF before leaving national territory
• The holder of any other Long Term Residence Title, may not be absent from European Union territory for a period equal to or exceeding 12 consecutive months, or from national territory for a period equal to or exceeding six consecutive years, failing which the loss of such title may ensue.

I agree with what you quote however it is about residence not tax liability.
In your first point. Does this mean they are not eligible for tax in Portugal for those years they notify SEF (or whoever it may be now) of absence?
This pre-arranged absence is so they don't have the residence status removed if they have excess absence. Not to do with tax liabilities.
They would still be resident and be responsible to report tax in Portugal in my understanding.
Anyway, its thread drift so I'll leave it there. Sorry to have caused the drift.

edit
Thanks for keeping me straight Nortada.

 

[nortada]

I agree with what you quote however it is about residence not tax liability.
In your first point. Does this mean they are not eligible for tax in Portugal for those years they notify SEF (or whoever it may be now) of absence?
This pre-arranged absence is so they don't have the residence status removed if they have excess absence. Not to do with tax liabilities.
They would still be resident and be responsible to report tax in Portugal in my understanding.
Anyway, its thread drift so I'll leave it there. Sorry to have caused the drift.

edit
Thanks for keeping me straight Nortada.

Looking forward to your thread on taxation. It could be a bonanza.