90/180 days

[dslittle]

This thread is about the 90 in 180 day Schengen rule, which is common across the EU.

Tax law is down to individual states and so varies significantly across the EU so by drifting this thread into taxation all commonality will so be lost and the thread will descend into a miasma of comparisons, contradictions and confusion.

Possibly a better solution would be to leave this topic on 90/180 and a discussion on taxation the subject of a new thread.

Oops. That was my fault. Sorry…

 

[BurnitBlue]

Wildlings sailing vlog just out on utube. They have been picked up by French customs and "fined" for exceeding 6 month in an unregistered catamaran. I did not understand anything. For instance why 90 days was not mentioned. Check it out and see if you can work out what is going on. Beyond my meagre understanding.

 

[Daverw]

Wildlings sailing vlog just out on utube. They have been picked up by French customs and "fined" for exceeding 6 month in an unregistered catamaran. I did not understand anything. For instance why 90 days was not mentioned. Check it out and see if you can work out what is going on. Beyond my meagre understanding.

From what I recall they had applied and been grated residency earlier this year, not sure if they have bothered with any sort of registration fir the boat, they fly red ensign but boat has been in France prev owner French for some time so don’t see how it’s on SSR. They have never mentioned insurance. Suspect moving forward they are in for a bumpy ride.

 

[greeny]

Sounds like they were caught for what isknown in Portugal as the circulation tax which is payable after 6 months and is based on boat size and engine hp. But also sounds like they were lucky and have been let off. No mention of getting residencia or overstaying the 90 in 180 though. Maybe that is outside the Duanes remit and they are only interested in the tax aspect.
edit
Ah thanks Daverw. Seems they may already have the residency.

 

[Mistroma]

I've only watched some of the video and that explains a lot. The police didn't seem to be bothered about them being in France for more than 6 months and that makes sense if they already have residency. The main problem seemed stem from changing to a UK flag in 2021 and then keeping the boat in France for more than 6 months. A requirement for a "ship's passport" was discussed and I assume they mean registration documents.

I'll need to watch a bit more to see if it is clear that they need French registration or simply don't have UK registration documents. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the latter. Part 1 would be expensive and difficult to obtain. SSR would be their obvious option but they may not have a suitable UK address.

I can't see how it is related to 90 days in 180 days and it might have a connection to Brexit but I don't think it has a major impact. I think it has always been the case that they'd need to register in UK and not just stick up a red ensign. Perhaps Brexit removed the option to keep the boat's previous registration if they did not have residency at the time.

Not an ideal time to have a vessel with a red ensign have problems with French authorities. At least they are in the South of France with good weather and not in a harbour surrounded by French fishermen.

 

[westernman]

I've only watched some of the video and that explains a lot. The police didn't seem to be bothered about them being in France for more than 6 months and that makes sense if they already have residency. The main problem seemed stem from changing to a UK flag in 2021 and then keeping the boat in France for more than 6 months. A requirement for a "ship's passport" was discussed and I assume they mean registration documents.

I'll need to watch a bit more to see if it is clear that they need French registration or simply don't have UK registration documents. I wouldn't be surprised if it is the latter. Part 1 would be expensive and difficult to obtain. SSR would be their obvious option but they may not have a suitable UK address.

I can't see how it is related to 90 days in 180 days and it might have a connection to Brexit but I don't think it has a major impact. I think it has always been the case that they'd need to register in UK and not just stick up a red ensign. Perhaps Brexit removed the option to keep the boat's previous registration if they did not have residency at the time.

Not an ideal time to have a vessel with a red ensign have problems with French authorities. At least they are in the South of France with good weather and not in a harbour surrounded by French fishermen.

It was French customs not police.

The boat was not registered at all anywhere. Boats above 7m or with an engine bigger than about 4.5 litres or PWC with engines more powerful than 90KW have to be registered. A French citizen or a French resident does not have to register their boat in France.
It is perfectly legitimate to be French resident and to have a UK registered Part 1 boat.

They have been in France for more than 6 months in one go so they are technically resident.

French residents have to pay a boat tax. This is what is referred to when the douane talked about "passport".
See here: Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

So it looks like they are going to be asked to pay the tax due. I did not see any reference to a fine anywhere.

At it was the customs, it looks like they are not going to be fined for not having a boat registration (that is a maritine police/gendarme matter).
As the "droit de passeport" might be overdue, they might be subject to a 10% increase for late payment.

So I don't really see anything heavy handed or malicious here at all.

If they had registered the boat on UK part 1 with a UK address and flashed that registration document, then the douane would not have been interested unless it was obvious that he personally, the boat owner, (not the boat) had been in France for more than 6 months.

I don't think the douane have the means to verify how long some one has been in the country - but they will possibly know exactly how long the boat has been there and where.

When in foreign places, their rules. Best to take notice.

 

[BurnitBlue]

Thanks daverw, of course customs are not immigration. I am always blinded by blue uniforms and a big hat whether it is police, customs, immigration or simply an inspector checking bus tickets. I did catch his comment that he (and his wife) were considered French resident because they had been in France for more than 6 month. That I still do not understand. I had to jump through hoops to retain my Swedish residency despite living here legally for over twenty years.

 

[Daverw]

they came down in their original boat just at COVID struck, got stuck in lockdowns then sold it and bought the cat they have now, Spent the last year doing it up, they applied for residency then and reported that this was granted early this year. The boat had a French owner for a number of years. They have not lived in the UK as they were working in China before.
not sure of the boats size but expect it’s over 7 metres so from what is said needs registration and does that in France have compulsory equipment etc?

 

[Mistroma]

It was French customs not police.

The boat was not registered at all anywhere. Boats above 7m or with an engine bigger than about 4.5 litres or PWC with engines more powerful than 90KW have to be registered. A French citizen or a French resident does not have to register their boat in France.
It is perfectly legitimate to be French resident and to have a UK registered Part 1 boat.

They have been in France for more than 6 months in one go so they are technically resident.

French residents have to pay a boat tax. This is what is referred to when the douane talked about "passport".
See here: Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

So it looks like they are going to be asked to pay the tax due. I did not see any reference to a fine anywhere.

At it was the customs, it looks like they are not going to be fined for not having a boat registration (that is a maritine police/gendarme matter).
As the "droit de passeport" might be overdue, they might be subject to a 10% increase for late payment.

So I don't really see anything heavy handed or malicious here at all.

If they had registered the boat on UK part 1 with a UK address and flashed that registration document, then the douane would not have been interested unless it was obvious that he personally, the boat owner, (not the boat) had been in France for more than 6 months.

I don't think the douane have the means to verify how long some one has been in the country - but they will possibly know exactly how long the boat has been there and where.

When in foreign places, their rules. Best to take notice.

Good explanation. I still haven't watched anything more than 60 seconds or so. I was pretty certain it was lack of boat documentation and not the people. The title said "Fined By The Police" and police were mentioned specifically in the introduction. I only watched the beginning with very low sound and read "passport" from the sub-titles. I assumed that was his bad translation and they probably did not say passport.

Thanks for the explanation, I think you have nailed it. We have been stopped by a variety of officials in Italy but only ever ran into Customs people in France. It makes a lot more sense for them to be quizzed by Customs.

If it is an annual tax they'll probably need to pay from purchase date, possible plus a surcharge. Probably only 200-300 euro though, not thousands. I expect they will update once the amount is known and if it is one-off or annual.

At least it has nothing to do with 90/180 days.

 

[westernman]

.... needs registration and does that in France have compulsory equipment etc?

Yes. A French registered boat has to have certain safety equipment. Nothing unusual or onerous though. In order to be registered, the boat has to be surveyed for safety as well. Not sure how involved that is. It might just involve ticking of the list of safety equipment.

 

[westernman]

... but only ever ran into Customs people in France.

Slightly different meaning for "ran into".

I very nearly rammed a French customs cutter which was accompanied by a Spanish one when I was approaching a small bay under sail.
I was the stand on vessel (and would have been stand on even if I was running the engine as well). They left it until the last second to get out the way.

I kind of feel cheated.....

 

[Clancy Moped]

It was French customs not police.

The boat was not registered at all anywhere. Boats above 7m or with an engine bigger than about 4.5 litres or PWC with engines more powerful than 90KW have to be registered. A French citizen or a French resident does not have to register their boat in France.
It is perfectly legitimate to be French resident and to have a UK registered Part 1 boat.

They have been in France for more than 6 months in one go so they are technically resident.

French residents have to pay a boat tax. This is what is referred to when the douane talked about "passport".
See here: Vous naviguez sous pavillon étranger : le droit de passeport

So it looks like they are going to be asked to pay the tax due. I did not see any reference to a fine anywhere.

At it was the customs, it looks like they are not going to be fined for not having a boat registration (that is a maritine police/gendarme matter).
As the "droit de passeport" might be overdue, they might be subject to a 10% increase for late payment.

So I don't really see anything heavy handed or malicious here at all.

If they had registered the boat on UK part 1 with a UK address and flashed that registration document, then the douane would not have been interested unless it was obvious that he personally, the boat owner, (not the boat) had been in France for more than 6 months.

I don't think the douane have the means to verify how long some one has been in the country - but they will possibly know exactly how long the boat has been there and where.

When in foreign places, their rules. Best to take notice.

This happened to us, We got a knock on the boat 6 am and told 'Come with us.' They had a dossier on us 2 inches thick. We paid a fine and about 5 years back payment, and were issued with a passport de douane with a note in it to say we had been naughty. So every time we got boarded we had to show the passport and told on your way.

 

[westernman]

If it is an annual tax they'll probably need to pay from purchase date, possible plus a surcharge. Probably only 200-300 euro though, not thousands. I expect they will update once the amount is known and if it is one-off or annual.

At least it has nothing to do with 90/180 days.

For a boat longer than 15m (about 50ft), which I am guessing their boat is, the tax is 886 euros + the tax for the engines. Assuming a 2litre engine, that is an additional 160 euros. I.e. about 1046 euros per year. There is a bit step up at 15m.
If the boat is more than 13 years old, there is a 33% discount.

There is a table here. Tout connaître sur la taxe de francisation - iNautia
But note that the date from which the age counts has been frozen as the 1st Jan. 2019.

They will almost certainly have to pay a 10% surcharge.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Westerman explain it petty well , which is why many French flag their boats in other country flags .

 

[westernman]

Westerman explain it petty well , which is why many French flag their boats in other country flags .

That does not change anything.

For a French resident, they have to pay the tax anyway. Either the "droit de francisation" if the boat is french registered, or the "droit de passeport".
The amount of tax is the same.

A French resident who has a boat, even if it is foreign registered, even if it never navigates in French waters is supposed to pay the "droit de passeport".

 

[sailaboutvic]

That does not change anything.

For a French resident, they have to pay the tax anyway. Either the "droit de francisation" if the boat is french registered, or the "droit de passeport".
The amount of tax is the same.

A French resident who has a boat, even if it is foreign registered, even if it never navigates in French waters is supposed to pay the "droit de passeport".

Agree but some do and sail them away from home water without records of them having a boat .
It also apply to Italian boat owners again many Italian have boats under a different flag , once it wasn't unusually to see them on SSR And Dutch of cause it's now much hardly to do so

 

[westernman]

Agree but some do and sail them away from home water without records of them having a boat .

Of course this means that the boat was foreign owned when they bought it.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Of course this means that the boat was foreign owned when they bought it.

Correct .

 

[Mistroma]

For a boat longer than 15m (about 50ft), which I am guessing their boat is, the tax is 886 euros + the tax for the engines. Assuming a 2litre engine, that is an additional 160 euros. I.e. about 1046 euros per year. There is a bit step up at 15m.
If the boat is more than 13 years old, there is a 33% discount.

There is a table here. Tout connaître sur la taxe de francisation - iNautia
But note that the date from which the age counts has been frozen as the 1st Jan. 2019.

They will almost certainly have to pay a 10% surcharge.

Ouch, I thought their boat looked pretty old, not very big and not worth a huge amount. My guess was based on something a lot smaller than 15+m, old and cheap. I figured that combination wouldn't run into a huge bill but did think it would be annual

It is going to put a dent in their plans if it is 1k every year.

UPDATE:
I took a few minutes to check and think they are sailing a 46 year old Sailcraft Cherokee 35 10.7m. The engines will be fairly small It won't be worth much and I suspect the tax will be more like 50-60 euro rather than 1,046 euro per annum. Fingers crossed some odd-ball rule doesn't kick in to multiple the fee or add a huge amount to punish late payment.

 

[sailaboutvic]

Ouch, I thought their boat looked pretty old, not very big and not worth a huge amount. My guess was based on something a lot smaller than 15+m, old and cheap. I figured that combination wouldn't run into a huge bill but did think it would be annual

It is going to put a dent in their plans if it is 1k every year.

UPDATE:
I took a few minutes to check and think they are sailing a 46 year old Sailcraft Cherokee 35 10.7m. The engines will be fairly small It won't be worth much and I suspect the tax will be more like 50-60 euro rather than 1,046 euro per annum. Fingers crossed some odd-ball rule doesn't kick in to multiple the fee or add a huge amount to punish late payment.

I'm not a fan of you tube TV, we met too many and I can tell you what's been cut out of the video is much more interesting then what's in .
Anyway I jumped to the end and I think they ended up paying €75 .