You're all incompetent!

[BlueSkyNick]

There is a scarily large number of people in the industry and supply chain who have never actually been on a boat, let alone worked on one, but still have a view on how to do things.

 

[ukmctc]

There is a scarily large number of people in the industry and supply chain who have never actually been on a boat, let alone worked on one, but still have a view on how to do things.

+1, 99% I'd say.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

Can you make goats fall over?

Nope, not even penguins!

 

[mikeinkwazi]

one out of five

Given the state of the wiring on our previous boat when we bought it, he may have a point!

I guess it's always dangerous to generalise - there are certainly a lot of bodgers around who are only saved by the fact that it is just 12v. I've got a bit of paper from a university somewhere that says I'm qualified (at least I was a very long time ago) to do it, so I'm all right Jack!

I always try to get to know my boats, and fix em! BUT out of the five I have owned, (I started sailing in the '70's) only one was just about ok as far as electrics went. (It was new) The rest, including my 33 year old Marieholm IF were a right birds nest when I got them! I do have a qualified son who has been a vast help over the years, but now he gets nervous when I mention boats!

 

[lw395]

What twerp!

Without exception I have been shafted by engineers.
The last one told me he had to replace the engine mount rubbers whilst replacing the stern gland and cutless bearing.
The most professional bit of his act was the full palette of creativity he brought to the bill he composed to rival the Greek national debt.

He was as much a stranger to the truth as he was to any pretence of engineering skill.

QUOTE]

I very much doubt reading your exprience that your tradesmen were 'engineers'.

Engineers are registered with the Engineering Council as T Eng, I Eng and C Eng. Some C Engineers become Fellows of their Institute and thus sign themselves as F Eng. If you were unhappy with their performance or ethics then you can complain to their professional institute.



So tom dick or harry turning up in a white van is not an engineer by definition what ever he may title he gives himself unless he indicates he has got the above qualifications. Neither are firms calling themselves Engineers unless thay have qualified staff on the books.

Sadly we British as a nation are very sloppy with our descriptions and acceptance of sloppy standards hence the common term washing 'engineer' etc. .We reap what we sow.

Brian

who happens to be a Eur Ing, MSc, C Eng, C Mar Eng etc etc)

+1, but to be fair, I know some engineers MIET and MSC who are great at designing things but awful at building or fixing them. A good technician or shopfloor worker will often do the best job.

 

[mcframe]

Our experience with boat tradesmen has been generally very satisfactory. Perhaps the two key reasons were taking recommendations and realistic expectations.

Good point - when I get beyond my abilities and have to "get a man in", (engineer, barrister, rigger, glasser, dentist or surgeon†) I try to make clear that I know what I want; get confirmation that it's a reasonable expectation; and acknowledge that I'm paying them for their ability to deliver it to the agreed price & time.

† I inherited a roll of Swann-Mortons, but only use them for fine woodwork ;-)

 

[mcframe]

"His attitude is that his product must be installed by a professional"

My understanding of the word "professional" is someone who gets paid to do some work. It does not make any comment on the quality of the work and in fact being as there is a cost involved could and in my experiences lead to short cuts.

Amateurs built the Ark.

Professionals built the Titanic.

 

[prv]

Nope, not even penguins!

You want Seajet for that, I think.


















(Actually the story about penguins falling over trying to watch Harriers fly overhead is apparently a myth.)

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

(Actually the story about penguins falling over trying to watch Harriers fly overhead is apparently a myth.)

Pete

Yes, it is definitely a myth; I knew a guy who worked on aircraft disturbance of penguin colonies, and he got REALLY fed up with that one!

 

[Bosun Higgs]

It had never occurred to me that the typical boater would employ an electrical engineer to fit the bilge switch he'd just picked up at his local chandlery. I'm sure some do but I've always imagined that most boaters would take the DIY route.

You've not been using the forums very long then. Posters regularly admit to using a "technician" ( mechanic in old language) to service their engines or a rigger to make their rigging. Usual excuse is shortage of time but given how quick and easy these jobs mostly are, that can't be true. More likely the reason is our cr*p education system and the posters lack of understanding / fear of cocking up simple systems like 12 v wiring or diesel engine maintenance.

So, do you know your own level of competence or are you inclined to set about open heart surgery because it looks easy?

Not yet found anything routine that cannot be solved by the application of simple intelligence and ( for info) the web. The difficult jobs are the odd ones like, for example, applying mastic to the hull deck join all round the boat. I made a complete mess of it. Ditto when I have tried plastering at home. Alternatively, really complicated things like repairing radar sets require skills beyond mine.

 

[lw395]

I use a rigger to make rigging, because I don't have a huge roll-swage tool and it would not be economic for me to buy and store one.

 

[prv]

a rigger to make their rigging.

To be fair, assembling modern rigging needs tools that it doesn't make sense for individual boat-owners to own. A handheld hydraulic press for Talurit sleeves might just about be feasible, but not whatever tool is used for stainless swaged end fittings.

Much as the self-sufficiency of using a wormed, parcelled and served liverpool splice round the hounds and racking seizings around deadeyes appeals, it's hardly an appropriate approach for conventional yachts.

Pete

 

[mitiempo]

On the other hand a Sta-Lok, Norseman or Hayn fitting only requires wrenches. The fittings are certainly more expensive but the labour is saved.

 

[silver fox]

Surgery

I’ve just concluded a debate by email with the manager of a marine electrical products manufacturer. Discussing customer support and warranty issues I told him that his product would typically be bought from a chandlery and fitted by the boat owner.

His reaction to the fact that boat owners might undertake the installation of DC electrics was scathing:..... boat owners haven’t a clue when it comes to the engineering of their boats but to save money or to feed their ego or just for something to do they take on jobs beyond their competence...blah, blah, blah. Boats catch fire etc, etc. you can buy a scalpel but it doesn't mean you can do surgery etc.

I was quite surprised at this attitude. after all, the item in question is only a 12v bilge pump switch!

It had never occurred to me that the typical boater would employ an electrical engineer to fit the bilge switch he'd just picked up at his local chandlery. I'm sure some do but I've always imagined that most boaters would take the DIY route.

So, do you know your own level of competence or are you inclined to set about open heart surgery because it looks easy?

It would depend on who I was operating on. I wouldn't mind practicing on a few people until I "mastered" the art

 

[claymore]

I’ve just concluded a debate by email with the manager of a marine electrical products manufacturer. Discussing customer support and warranty issues I told him that his product would typically be bought from a chandlery and fitted by the boat owner.

His reaction to the fact that boat owners might undertake the installation of DC electrics was scathing:..... boat owners haven’t a clue when it comes to the engineering of their boats but to save money or to feed their ego or just for something to do they take on jobs beyond their competence...blah, blah, blah. Boats catch fire etc, etc. you can buy a scalpel but it doesn't mean you can do surgery etc.

I was quite surprised at this attitude. after all, the item in question is only a 12v bilge pump switch!

It had never occurred to me that the typical boater would employ an electrical engineer to fit the bilge switch he'd just picked up at his local chandlery. I'm sure some do but I've always imagined that most boaters would take the DIY route.

So, do you know your own level of competence or are you inclined to set about open heart surgery because it looks easy?

Personally - I think it is very selfish to do jobs yourself. Apart from it being a potential source of domestic strife, a lot of people have paid good money to get qualifications and its only fair to let them hone their skills. Take yourself for example, Saltimus Maximus - and the good Brothers at le Garage du San Michel. QED. Case rested.

 

[Salty John]

It would depend on who I was operating on. I wouldn't mind practicing on a few people until I "mastered" the art

Yes, I can think of a few people I wouldn't mind trying open heart surgery on!

Not unexpectedly, it seems that most PBO types would be happy to buy an item such as a bilge pump switch from a chandlery and install it themselves.

The problem of which switch is the right switch (to Ipswich) remains. The basic flapper switches have a reputation for crapping out in a short time. The solid state ones don't seem to get any better reviews, on the sites that provide customer reviews, than the flapper type. I reckon bilge pump switches have the lowest customer satisfaction rating than any other item on a boat!

There's a trend towards electric bilge pumps with incorporated switches - does this just lead to a more expensive consequence of a crapped out switch - a new pump?

On my boats I've tried all types - the best arrangement I found was to have the switch mounted together with the bilge pump on a common base and with an attached handle to allow you to lift the whole assembly out of the bilge for routine cleaning and checking - and change the switch routinely.

So, the search for the ultimate bilge pump switch goes on. Come on you inventors - it can't be beyond your wit to come up with a simple switch that will signal when it 'sees' water, can be installed easily in the confined space of most bilges, survive the hostile environment therein and, importantly, be installed by the boat owner without invalidating its guarantee.

 

[Salty John]

Personally - I think it is very selfish to do jobs yourself. Apart from it being a potential source of domestic strife, a lot of people have paid good money to get qualifications and its only fair to let them hone their skills. Take yourself for example, Saltimus Maximus - and the good Brothers at le Garage du San Michel. QED. Case rested.

Ah, Mudus opes, we welcome you to the forum. There is no doubt that the Brothers Extrordinaire at le garage du San Michel keep my aging chariot in tip top condition but even they would not expect me to book it in just so they could hone their interior light bulb changing skills. Nes pas?

 

[mitiempo]

Yes, I can think of a few people I wouldn't mind trying open heart surgery on!

Not unexpectedly, it seems that most PBO types would be happy to buy an item such as a bilge pump switch from a chandlery and install it themselves.

The problem of which switch is the right switch (to Ipswich) remains. The basic flapper switches have a reputation for crapping out in a short time. The solid state ones don't seem to get any better reviews, on the sites that provide customer reviews, than the flapper type. I reckon bilge pump switches have the lowest customer satisfaction rating than any other item on a boat!

There's a trend towards electric bilge pumps with incorporated switches - does this just lead to a more expensive consequence of a crapped out switch - a new pump?

On my boats I've tried all types - the best arrangement I found was to have the switch mounted together with the bilge pump on a common base and with an attached handle to allow you to lift the whole assembly out of the bilge for routine cleaning and checking - and change the switch routinely.

So, the search for the ultimate bilge pump switch goes on. Come on you inventors - it can't be beyond your wit to come up with a simple switch that will signal when it 'sees' water, can be installed easily in the confined space of most bilges, survive the hostile environment therein and, importantly, be installed by the boat owner without invalidating its guarantee.

Probably the second lowest customer satisfaction item would be the head.

True the flapper type of switches do not last very long.

I have a small maintenance pump with the built-in switch and find that it sticks on sometimes so my opinion of those isn't high either.

One issue is that I have installed a check valve just after the pump to prevent back flow. That works fine but there is one bonus to the back flow that many do not think of - it clears the pump of any debris. And my bilge is very clean. This is not my main bilge pump, just an effort to leave as little water in the bilge as possible.

The electronic switches have issues if the contacts aren't clean.

The best I have heard of (not used though) is a tube with a free float in it that contacts a micro switch at the top, well out of the water.

I work on boats for a living and have yet to see the perfect solution.

I do support owner installation -but if one thinks the installation is beyond their capabilities they often can (should) hire it done but many jobs on a boat are easy if the instructions are read and understood.

 

[Terra-Loon]

I have a Rule bilge pump switch here and I can't see how you could damage it with reverse polarity, although I have never tried. All it really has is a double throw switch that is momentary on the manual side and a fuse holder with an indicator light. You could blow the fuse and that is about it. It is pre-wired for the negative for the light, but lights don't care about polarity anyway.

There are many items that can be damaged by reverse polarity - vhf, depth, speed, etc but a switch is a pretty safe install - it works or it doesn't.

As far as the supplier that doesn't want DIY installs - he isn't very aware of the customer for his products and certainly doesn't deserve business with that attitude.

I've just installed one of those, and did a very professional job... even if i do say so myself!

 

[claymore]

Ah, Mudus opes, we welcome you to the forum. There is no doubt that the Brothers Extrordinaire at le garage du San Michel keep my aging chariot in tip top condition but even they would not expect me to book it in just so they could hone their interior light bulb changing skills. Nes pas?

Thats not what they said to me ;-)