You're all incompetent!

[monkfish24]

I would love to walk into his shop and ask for my boat's electrical shopping list.....

I'm a 24 year old male, I get discerning looks when I only go to a chandlery for rope, let alone if I then asked for my(ever growing list) of electrical doobery's and Ancor connectors.

However, I'm an aircraft avionics engineer and have been since I was 16, I think I could quickly make him remember the old saying of book and cover never to be judged!

 

[Simondjuk]

If the guy is simple minded enough to consider the installation of a bilge pump switch to be an operation which is sufficiently challenging that it requires the services of a professional installer, I sincerely don't want any of his products on my boat.

 

[BERT T]

Faulty switch

Quite right. That was the point of my discussion with him - like it or not you are selling to a market of DIY'ers, I told him.
His company offer a guarantee that they then get out of by claiming the purchaser damaged the switch whilst installing it. We offer a no quibble guarantee on all our products so we would replace the switch and then end up fighting with this supplier to get our stock of faulty switches replaced, which they would decline to do on the basis that our customer - you lot - were incompetent installers.

Must dash, but I'll be back with more replies tomorrow.

John please send me one of your faulty switches and I will have him by the short and curlys. As well as a boat owner I am also a qualified electrical engineer. Then we'll see what he has to say for himself.

 

[David2452]

I think the OP posting that on this particular forum could expect to get the kind of response that has been, in the main, forthcoming, there’s a big clue in the forum name as to the likely participants who in the main are likely to have some degree of competence, though judging from some of the posts that is not universally true even on here and this place house a small minority of boat owners. The heating & electrical DIY work I see in the course of my craft, (I say craft not profession nor do I call myself an engineer, this as has already been pointed out is just plain wrong.) ranges from the painstakingly executed using quality materials that I would be more than happy to put my name to, but that is a small minority, to downright dangerous bodges, that end is also a minority. The vast majority are not dangerous but do show a degree of incompetence and lack of knowledge of basic procedures, which materials to use etc and certainly show a high disregard for the poor bugger who will be the next owner. I have still yet to see a completely and fully executed DIY blown air heater install though I am sure that somewhere where the DIY installer has followed the maker’s instructions instead of thinking they know better and had access to the correct equipment there must be some. As for work on my own boat though I feel comfortable with basic mechanical stuff I would not consider myself competent beyond routine service tasks and would call on the services of the Volvo Pauls of this world as I know they have equipment, depth and breadth of experience and ethical approach that I like to believe I bring to my own craft. Just for balance I have also seen some completely unacceptable work carried out by qualified staff but I often think that is not incompetence but either poor appraisal of the task in hand and hence under quoting or that they simply can’t be arsed, which to my mind is actually worse than incompetence. A word on the word so to speak, it does seem to be used and or seen as some kind of insult but it simply means not being equipped to do a particular task properly

 

[Salty John]

John please send me one of your faulty switches and I will have him by the short and curlys. As well as a boat owner I am also a qualified electrical engineer. Then we'll see what he has to say for himself.

No faulty switches - it was a hypothetical situation based on that companies attitude to DIY installers. We won't be carrying his products.

 

[Ceejay]

Hung drawn and quartered, by forum

I wonder what the other side to this sad story is?
CJ

 

[Deleted member 36384]

The Peter Principle

I’ve just concluded a debate by email with the manager of a marine electrical products manufacturer..... boat owners might undertake the installation of DC electrics was scathing:..... boat owners haven’t a clue ...... So, do you know your own level of competence ......

Many professionals would have a similar attitude, Charles Sterling springs to mind. However, if it was me I would keep my mouth shut as anyones money is good enough to buy the product. I have sailed many, many yachts and some repairs and installations are shocking.

My level of competence is far lower than I believe, something to do with the Peter Principle. However, one can always improve their competence when that level is discovered.

The main lesson for me over the years has not been one of over coming difficulties but rather having the discipline to thoroughly read the instructions and prepare well. Something I still on occasion, have trouble with. Being a smart ars'e is such a bore; more beer's involved with daring do stories of fingers in holes and glueing ones trowser knees to the sole.

 

[Salty John]

I wonder what the other side to this sad story is?
CJ

Oh, I don't think anyone has been 'hung, drawn and quartered' by this, other than that there is clearly a feeling that manufacturers who denigrate the skills of boatowners are wrong.

The other side to the story, and I don't find it a sad story so much as in interesting insight into attitudes, is that this manufacturer has presumably been hurt by having to replace damaged switches and doesn't want retailers to '...enable customers to think that they can install this equipment themselves' (his words). It's a 12v bilge switch!

His attitude is that his product must be installed by a professional or the warranty is, effectively, void. We couldn't possibly sell products on that basis but I thought it would be interesting to find out what boatowners thought of this anti-DIY attitude.

 

[rogerthebodger]

"His attitude is that his product must be installed by a professional"

My understanding of the word "professional" is someone who gets paid to do some work. It does not make any comment on the quality of the work and in fact being as there is a cost involved could and in my experiences lead to short cuts.

I has a situation when a "professional" had fitted a raymarine AIS to a friends boat that diden't work and when I looked at it the wiring was completely wrong.

Being a retired C Eng, M I MechE I always have difficulty with the South African safety inspectors who in most have no engineering skills at all inspecting my self built boat.

 

[Coaster]

Oh, I don't think anyone has been 'hung, drawn and quartered' by this, other than that there is clearly a feeling that manufacturers who denigrate the skills of boatowners are wrong.

Hear hear. Exactly right.

...this manufacturer has presumably been hurt by having to replace damaged switches and doesn't want retailers to '...enable customers to think that they can install this equipment themselves' (his words). It's a 12v bilge switch!

For me the interesting and unanswered question posed by this thread is how were the switches damaged? Electrical overload or mechanical abuse?

An effective way of learning is by making our own mistakes. An even better way is learning from other peoples' mistakes. I'd love to know what led to the bilge pump switches becoming damaged.

 

[RAI]

Maybe his desired "professional" would know better than to put a bilge pump switch in a bilge, where it might get wet. Amateurs think that's where it's supposed to be. Hence the damned amateurs are always sending his bilge switches back.

 

[Salty John]

I'd love to know what led to the bilge pump switches becoming damaged.

With most bilge switches, electro-mechanical and solid state, damage can occur if the switch is installed with the wrong polarity. They carry warnings to this effect.
I had raised the hypothetical issue of a buyer wiring in the switch the wrong way around and damaging it, then returning it under warranty, probably without even realising he'd damaged it himself. That's when this bloke went off on one about boatowners being incompetent and I shouldn't 'enable' (I think this means encourage) them to do the installation themselves. I assume from his reaction that this polarity issue is the main DIY problem.

I'm sure Rule, for instance, have this problem but they, presumably, accept it as a cost of doing business.

 

[northwind]

I'm sure Rule, for instance, have this problem but they, presumably, accept it as a cost of doing business.

Or design the product in a way to protect the circuit if incorrectly wired... Not difficult or expensive to do.

 

[rogerthebodger]

If the product is that polarity selective it should a reverse polarity protection.

If it does not it could be considered to be "not fit for purpose" IMHO.

 

[Salty John]

If the product is that polarity selective it should a reverse polarity protection.

Yes, northwind makes the same point, but most bilge switches aren't, for whatever reason.

 

[mitiempo]

I have a Rule bilge pump switch here and I can't see how you could damage it with reverse polarity, although I have never tried. All it really has is a double throw switch that is momentary on the manual side and a fuse holder with an indicator light. You could blow the fuse and that is about it. It is pre-wired for the negative for the light, but lights don't care about polarity anyway.

There are many items that can be damaged by reverse polarity - vhf, depth, speed, etc but a switch is a pretty safe install - it works or it doesn't.

As far as the supplier that doesn't want DIY installs - he isn't very aware of the customer for his products and certainly doesn't deserve business with that attitude.

 

[KristiferColumbus]

My boating pleasure has improved immeasurably since I have contracted competent people to service/look after our boat. Sure it costs a bit more, but what price the ability to Relax and not get stressed. I am not particularly well off, but it's money we'll spent. Going to the boat is a pleasure not a chore.

I do the stuff that I want to do, not need to do!

Lets hope it never breaks down at sea or it sounds like you would be scuppered,still there is always another professional service there to pick up the pieces.It is called the RNLI

 

[prv]

I have a Rule bilge pump switch here and I can't see how you could damage it with reverse polarity, although I have never tried. All it really has is a double throw switch that is momentary on the manual side and a fuse holder with an indicator light.

I think we're talking about switches that go in the bilge, not on the panel. Modern ones are solid-state electronic (so that they don't get tangled with bilge detritus and fail to move, like old float switches can) and hence polarity-sensitive. Agree with other posters that it's daft not to include a diode to prevent damage from reverse polarity though.

Pete

 

[AntarcticPilot]

What twerp!

Without exception I have been shafted by engineers.
The last one told me he had to replace the engine mount rubbers whilst replacing the stern gland and cutless bearing.
The most professional bit of his act was the full palette of creativity he brought to the bill he composed to rival the Greek national debt.

He was as much a stranger to the truth as he was to any pretence of engineering skill.

QUOTE]

I very much doubt reading your exprience that your tradesmen were 'engineers'.

Engineers are registered with the Engineering Council as T Eng, I Eng and C Eng. Some C Engineers become Fellows of their Institute and thus sign themselves as F Eng. If you were unhappy with their performance or ethics then you can complain to their professional institute.



So tom dick or harry turning up in a white van is not an engineer by definition what ever he may title he gives himself unless he indicates he has got the above qualifications. Neither are firms calling themselves Engineers unless thay have qualified staff on the books.

Sadly we British as a nation are very sloppy with our descriptions and acceptance of sloppy standards hence the common term washing 'engineer' etc. .We reap what we sow.

Brian

who happens to be a Eur Ing, MSc, C Eng, C Mar Eng etc etc)

It gets even more confusing, though. I am NOT an engineer - but I AM a Senior Member of the Institute of Electrical and Electronic Engineers! And I am also a professional in my own field. It just happens that the IEEE has a section devoted to GeoScience and Remote Sensing, which is what I know about. But my knowledge of electricity stops at A-level, and I am cautious about my capabilities in doing work on the eletrical system of the boat.

By the way, another poster suggested that the fact that we mostly use 12V systems made things safer. Not so - 12V does not equal "safe". 12V does equal high currents, and the energy available to cause havoc is proportional to the square of the current. Given that lead-acid batteries have minuscule internal resistance, you can easily get a VERY high current flowing in a shorted out 12V circuit. The classic thing is the spanner melted onto the terminals of a battery, of course.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

.... and Remote Sensing .....

Can you make goats fall over?