YM too easy?

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

Great as long as trust authority. Would you feel the same if you lived in Iraq or Zimbabwe.

Do you like Big Brother(Not the TV Prog.)

Martin

 

[Opinionated]

Re: All training is good!

...and be subjected to various tests and exams at regular intervals to show that they had absorbed said training thus massively reducing the number of people killed or injured at sea

I'll go for that!!

Make it mandatory, and, since I would have to take the test so as to continue sailing, I'd be quite happy.

As long as the exam is optional, then why put hand in pocket to prove it. Yes, of course not having a ticket means there are a lot of poor sailors on the water - but you miss my argument, it is about making it compulsory, which is implied in the quote I snipped from your post.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[jimmie]

aNSWER THE QUESTION!

Are you really Captain Calamity? Anyway I'm on parole at the moment and will be until they catch me. As to my dishonesty, I'm innocent as are all the inmates except Jeffrey!

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: All training is good!

Do you notice how almost every thread at the moment seems to work itself round to the same subject – Fear of compulsory registration - why is that?

Anyway, on the YM front. I would have thought however good anybody is, they can gain benefits from sailing with an experienced instructor, just relying on DIY may mean you continue to practice bad habits. Isn't that the way to look at it?

 

[Opinionated]

Re: All training is good!

As long as it is non-compulsory, there is no reason to suppose anyone (non-YM ticketed) has, or could, demonstrate any degree of proficiency. But unfortunately, it is not true that a YM ticket proves it. The ZeroToHero courses undermine the whole thing. It is like learning to play tennis from a book and a quick course - OK for 'faking it' on one given day - which is exactly what happens.

I suspect most non-YM ticketed skippers with their own boats are not so insular that they never have crew with oodles more experience from time to time, and probably crew for same. I certainly do - and we all compare notes in the clubhouse. Most of the things I have learned from others are things I would be unlikely to have learned on a YM course.

I, too, did a course a fair time ago - a DS course, which was invaluable as a starter course, and I didn't notice much difference when I had a free ride as crew for a few guys doing a YM refresher preparatory for exam. I also did the theory YM, as, although there is no substitute for experience - theory from books and courses is invaluable. I have read about things I have yet to experience (unless I can avoid them).

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[FlyingSpud]

Re: All training is good!

No arguments fromme about zero-to-hero courses – couldn’t they be stopped by the RYA insisting that you had to have a lower level course before you do a higher? Something like competent crew > day skipper > coastal skipper > Ocean YM and that at least one year has to pass between each?
Or would that give IYT a commercial advantage?

I think in due course something like a YM licence will become inevitable, because without it you will never get insurance. Mind you, I’ve been saying that for years, and it has still not happened.

 

[rhinorhino]

Re: Is it not about

"If you make any volunatary test too difficult then people simply wont participate."
Really? The popularity of mass marathons, the existence of 23(v) SAS, institute of advanced motorists test etc may suggest your are wrong.
Again you make the case for the RYA as the font of all sailing wisdom with much verve.
The real question is what is the YM for?
I had understood the purpose was to set a standard and test candidates against it and the standard was "ability to skipper any, yes any, conventional yacht safely on any passage not involving major ocean crossings"
I am sure we are all aware of people passing at the end of a sixteen week course, how does that match up to your comments about miles?

 

[BrendanS]

Re: All training is good!

Personally, if I had been made to climb the ladder of courses I wouldn't bother until it became compulsory.I don't have the time to do all the introductory courses, and am doing YM because I can learn something from it, and it is challenging enough to be interesting.

When I spoke to several training establishments they told me to go straight for YM, as I wouldn't gain much from the lower levels, as I have been navigating for years (flying, hill walking, mountaineering) and having been involved in many so called 'dangerous' sports, I take planning and risk assesment as a matter of course.

I also believe that courses are merely an indicator of proficiency, and that you learn the really important things from doing it, and talking to others who have hints and tips that are not part of any syllabus

 

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

Because we're afraid of compulsory registration.

Martin

 

[aod]

I had skippered yachts over 60K miles including two around Britain and Ireland races, 6 Fastnets, the AZAB race, a two handed race to Iceland a couple of races to Spain and more cross chanel races than I can remember before I did the YM practical.
Personaly I found it really useful and learn't bucket loads of new stuff. I also found the exam really testing and on the whole best described as a very beneficial unpleasant experience.

Since then I did the cruising certificate practical with an instructor who I knew had considerably less experience than myself. I again learned bucket loads of stuff and felt a real and tangible benefit from the course.

My motive was two fold: Firstly I am convinced that rightly or wrongly proof of basic competence will be a future legislative requirement much like the driving licence.
Secondly, sometimes unforseeable tragic events simply happen, and as the skipper of the boat it's my job to try and minimise that risk. If something happens it's also my job to do the right thing whatever that be to minimise harm. Courts do not really concern me but my concience does, and I wouldn't want to live the rest of my life knowing that I didn't do something properly and thus someone was seriously injured or indeed died as a result of my lack of knowledge. Did the YM provide me with this 'new knowledge', the answer is probably not. But it did confirm that my approach and actions were the correct ones and it certainly didn't de-skill these areas.

If there's a course available stick me on it because I know I am going to learn something useful from someone and that might even be a comp crew who happens to be on the same course.

I do not present the YM as a panacea of all learning but I do present it as an opportunity to learn and consolidate, and the certificate itself merely suggests that you have a proven basic ability which, combined with experience offers a best case scenerio.
Plus, how can you ever know that you really are competent as oppose to plain lucky, without putting yourself at test with an independent evaluator?

You may well say that there simply isn't any substitute for experience, but I know some of the BT crews who have sailed 27000 miles and yet they are not competent to safely take a yacht from Portsmouth to Cowes.

Experience must by definition be relative to circumstances. If you have driven a car around Mull for 20 years the local population may consider you an experienced driver. Put that same driver in the center of London during rush hour and they would be considered less experienced (in those circumstances) than a local lad who passed his test a year ago.

You can bang your drums all you like about the freedom of the sea and how the YM doesn't mean anything at all but in this age of accountability you might find that you have to prove that from the witness box, as well as explain to relatives that you really do know what you are doing, and little Johns demise was purely an act of god and nothing to do with the fact that a barrister has just questioned your claimed proof of competence. Not forgetting the press of course who would have an absolute field day with any tragedy involving an unqualified skipper irrespective of whether they did everything correctly.

For my money I would favour compulsory qualifications because experience is as I have said relative to circumstance and largely un-measurable, but a YM if nothing else, is a bench mark which indicates a level of responsibility in the skipper. With responsibility comes a duty of care and when it comes down to my son or daughter sailing with a skipper who has shown themselves to be responsible by undertaking training and evaluation they will always gain my vote over 'claimed experience'.

 

[petery]

RYA v MCA

I haven't yet aspired to sitting the YM exam - but I did take the 4 day GMDSS Long Range Radio course and exam last weekend.

Having done the RYA GMDSS VHF exam a few years ago, I imagined it would involve a couple of hours watching a few videos, buying the lecturer a drink at lunch time and an automatic pass with no written exam (yep - I was never given one) - ie some kind of 'Right of Passage' that made a few quid for the lecturer.

I couldn't have been more wrong. It was a tough 4 day/30 hour slog with an hour of written questions; a long group practical exam and a 'one to one grilling' by an examiner whom we had never met.

The main difference from the RYA VHF course/exam ? - it was an CEPT/MCA qualification with an independent examiner from a nautical college and totally objective marking to a national (international?) standard.

... and all that just for transmitting and receiving distress calls on MF and HF.