YM too easy?

[Opinionated]

Re: All training is good!

As you have the basic theory and practical (plus ticket) why do you view a YM practicl course as the best training - surely the best practical training is DIY? The YM practical course is a one-week refresher followed immediately (whilst it is still fresh in your mind!) by an exam with a YMExaminer, whereas DIY is spread over years, and becomes ingrained, not transiently here and gone.

Some people don't have electronic plotters etc, and use paper and pencil all the time - and enjoy the exercise of getting a fix to agree with GPS. You probably get all the experience of picking up buoys you need when doing 'ordinary' cruising.

You can always practice picking up a weighted fender for yourself, and kid yourself that it is the same as MOB? Of course, MOB is a far more deadly business than the RYA requirement - have you tried getting someone out of the water when you have quite easily got back to him?

What else, oh, yes - more good fun on the day when you can't really go anywhere much - do some blind nav with your first mate, contour creeping.

Passage planning, well, if you don't do that already, you have got a bit of a problem, and a YM practical won't fix it.

Maybe I am biassed by all those YMs I have met like my pal - and all the non YMs who have never felt the need.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[Magic_Sailor]

My own reasons were to learn (practically) and gain in confidence. Both of which I did. It was invaluable.

Nowt wrong wi' tha is there?

Magic

 

[Opinionated]

No, nothing against that. My point was that it is unnecessary.

It is a bit like driving a car - either you can pass the test or you can't - and doing the test doesn't change your ability, but it does make you legal. Thinking about it, my analogy is probably not good, since being not good enough for the driving test means you will probably fail, but what I hear about YM examination suggests this not so true for YM test.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[jimi]

Re: All training is good!

Reason is that when I did my Coastal Skipper Practical (Course & Exam) I learnt a lot more in that week than I had in a year's cruising with the family! I wish to repeat the learning process and if your unfamiliar with sailing with 3 young daughters on board I can assure you they get very peed off with you sailing around in circles trying to pick up a fender, and you spend a lot more time on 'crew welfare' than on traditional navigational techniques! Not only that its a good opportunity to meet other people doing the same thing ... and its a week away from the wife and bairns!

 

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

You may draw any inference you wish about me & my sailing ability but I passed my Yachtmaster Practical some years ago.

I found the examination( being under close scrutiny for half a weekend) quite hard. It was no easy ride.

I was, & am extremely proud to hold the certificate.

I do not feel the need to ram it up others noses.

It is very easy to criticise when you, have not had the resolve, to put yourself through that experience.

I have never met anyone who has passed the practical exam & is not competent to sail across channel & a lot further afield.

Take it from me the exam is no easy option.

Martin

 

[yachtcharisma]

Re: All training is good!

Agree absolutely. I've also done the Coastal Skipper course and exam, a couple of years ago now, and found it hugely satisfying. Yes, of course, you can practise these things on your own, but (a) they do tend to get put off, and (b) because you only do them occasionally, and with no-one else watching, you at best manage to stand still in terms of ability.

Knowing there's an exam coming up at the end of the week, focusses the mind no-end. Having a knowlegable instructor on hand lets you talk through other ways of doing things, bounce ideas around a bit, and see that although your way might work, perhaps there's a better way of doing it. Or not! And so doing the exam was, for me, then about the satisfaction of demonstrating what I'd been practising all week.

I'm not sure I actually learnt any new techniques in my week's course, but I gained hugely in confidence in applying them, and, through intense practice, also improved my ability to apply them. So I found it a thoroughly worthwhile week, and would recommend it to anyone.

Cheers
Patrick

Sailing a Corribee in Plymouth
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox

 

[Guest]

When I took my YM Practical Exam the examiner said that he was looking for a level of skill that would enable him to say that he would be happy for me to take one of his nearest and dearest on a cross channel passage.I duly demonstrated said skill level and passed the exam.I did not do it for the kudos - I needed it so that I could become a shorebased instructor for my club.Taken on its own the practical exam could be regarded as too easy by some people but I think that when taken in conjunction with the theory exam,the First Aid requirement and the amount of experience needed to qualify as a candidate the RYA have got it nearly right.I think the RYA need to look at the following ideas:
1. At the moment the Diesel Engine Course is an 'optional extra' I think this should be made a prerequisite for any Day Skipper Practical Candidate.This subject should be revisited at each level thereafter and be part of the YM Practical Exam.(I think the RNLI might back this one given the number of call outs due to engine problems.)
2. Health and Safety Legislation might well preclude practical emergency scenarios but these could be dealt with in a mandatory oral Q & A with the YM examiner along the lines of 'what action would you take if .......'

The RYA Training scheme is not perfect and never will be but IMHO it is far superior to learning by experience alone since while you are gaining said experience you are probably putting yourself,your crew and anyone who might have to come to your rescue at risk.

 

[yachtcharisma]

RYA Diesel engine course. I agree, it seems a good course, but it has always bothered me that there is no equivalent outboard course. Many boats less than around 24 feet, my own included, are outboard powered and yet we don't seem to be catered for at all. Thinking about it, many smaller power boats use outboards too, and they don't have the option of sailing when the engine dies on them... Surely an outboard course would be a good idea?

Cheers
Patrick

Sailing a Corribee in Plymouth
vzone.virgin.net/patrick.fox

 

[Skyva_2]

Re: All training is good!

Bigmart speaks truth, it is not easy. On my exam we had simulated rudder failure, MOB at night, GPS operation, and were expected to sail effectively at all times - even when a magnet was found taped to the binnacle! How sneaky is that?

Experience is essential, but sailing on your own it tends to be one years experience multiplied a few times, and you develop practices which may work but are not the most effective. Usually there is no one more experienced on board to suggest a better way.

You need at least 2500 miles and a few channel crossings to go for YM practical, I'm not saying thats enough but its a start. The exam made me extend my thinking, and most importantly the examiner identified what I did not manage as well as I should.

Keith

 

[Opinionated]

Re: All training is good!

... I did suggest that self-satisfaction (I would include self-confidence in that) was an option - and congrats and good luck to you.

However, I hope you hesitate to suggest the corollary to your inference - ie. no skipper without a YM ticket is competent to cross the channel?

I have meet many YM's with whom I would not feel safe as crew. One in particular a YM 'refresher' week before his YM exam spent 2 days on MOB only, as he had v.poor boat control. His closequarters mnouevering was downright dangerous, but he did not have a boat of his own, he only chartered. He boasted of some thousands of miles skippering chartered boats before he took his YM, which was how he satisfied the night passages etc.

As to making a snide character reference to 'my not having the resolve..', I thought I had made it fairly plain that I see no reason to do this.

I would have no problem if it gives me some monetary return, or if everyone has to have a YM to sail offshore, or something (I don't have a big problem with licencing, if it is like a car licence, one-off payment, unlike others here).

I don't need to establish my credentials with a piece of paper - you may feel you do. That is your right. Unlike smoking, those who do or don't do not interfere with each other's rights.

PS How do YOU stand on making YM qual compulsory?

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[Opinionated]

Chacun a son gout

Know thyself.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[jimmie]

Re: Chacun a son gout

I can recall Captain Calamity expressing similar sentiments, big boy. Is you thingie as big as your ego?

Jemmie

 

[claymore]

Re: All training is good!

I don't think you need to think of it as establishing your credentials with a piece of paper. I did mine as it was a recognised benchmark of ability and whilst I felt I had the relevant experience and ability, I wanted to see if that opinion was shared by an examiner. Happy to say, it was -(just!) - but it was also a situation where I was able to learn so that was good
Learning never stops - I always have one or two trips a year with really experienced friends and come away from each one with something new in the memory bank

regards
Claymore

 

[Opinionated]

Re: Chacun a son gout

Ego? Opinionated has opinions. The difference between thee and me, and most of the others, is that I am honest about it.

Anyway, how come they let you use the modem at this time of day? I thought you were supposed to be kept locked away after lunch?

My 'thingie' is pretty fair....IMHO opinion, of course.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

Please accept my apologies with respect to my comments about your resolve. I think the nearest analogy I can find is that its a bit like parenthood, everyones got an idea what its like but, until you've had the experience, youve not really got the whole picture.

I know of many Yachtsmen who do not hold the Yachtmaster Ticket, some who have failed the exam, & are superbly qualified to take boats across Biscay let alone the Channel. So I make no inference about only Yachtmasters being qualified for long /difficult passages.

I am totally against compulsory training.

My own desire to improve my knowledge drove me to take training courses & I would defend others right to follow this path.

I am particularly against giving some agency the opportunity to hijack boating licencing purely to replace their own dwindling government budget. You don't need to be the Chancellor of the Exchequer to see that, if you take boat licensing alone, the cost of collection, administration & policing the system would be prety well unworkable. It would end up like Ships Radio Licensing but more complex & we all know what service the leisure boat owner gets from that.

Martin

 

[Guest]

Re: All training is good!

Imagine,if you will,that the RYA Training Scheme had never existed and that the only way to learn was by 'experience'.Then one day someone suggests that it might be a good idea to set up an an entirely voluntary scheme whereby anyone wishing to take up sailing could learn the basics of the theory and practice of sailing,seamanship and navigation in a controlled and safe environment and be subjected to various tests and exams at regular intervals to show that they had absorbed said training thus massively reducing the number of people killed or injured at sea?Would the idea be dismissed out of hand? - I think not.

 

[claymore]

Re: Chacun a son gout

Are you saying jimmie is dishonest or are you saying that jimmie and most of the rest of us are dishonest?

regards
Claymore

 

[Opinionated]

Re: All training is good!

Ah, we differ, but maybe not totally.

I am certainly against boat licencing (although I have to pay a licence to the harbour authority), but in favour of skipper licencing.

Your driving licence costs you nothing annually. It is the car 'road fund licence' (joke!!) that costs.

I think everyone who sails offshore should have a driving licence to do so - call it YM or whatever you like.

The objectives of the licencing process should be so as to keep menaces off the water. So, being able to navigate (so as not to put demand on emergency services) manoeuvre (so as not to hit anyone else) understand the rules (same as last one) - in fact, almost all the RYA syllabus BUT - strangely enough, I think one's ability to sail efficiently, as distinct from sufficiently, is NOT a safety requirement, so need not be examined.

How anyone can be against that, is like understanding why people don't want to have a DNA registry.

(I don't have to agree with YOUR opinions, but I'll defend your right to express them).

 

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

For a sobering warning about licencing see Sybarite's post about Licencing & taxing elsewhere in this Forum.

Martin

 

[bigmart]

Re: All training is good!

For a sobering warning about licencing see Sybarite's post about Licencing & taxing elsewhere in this Forum.

Martin