Would you have stayed on board?

[fearmhuir]

In 2024(?), having left a mooring in Oban, heading for Tobermoray early in the morning, we heard a call to Belfast Coastguad from a yacht leaving Loch Aline. It was a female voice, very calm and composed. She explained very calmly that the skipper had 'a detached thumb' and needed urgent medical attention.
The lifeboat was tasked and we saw it exiting Oban and heard the usual - position, description of yacht etc. ETA.
The Coastguard dispatcher kept in regular contact, and then, almost as an afterthought the Coastguard asked, how many people on board?
The reply was two - so the dispatcher said 'would you like help in taking the yacht back to Oban after the skipper is evacuated?
The previously calm and composed voice said 'Oh! Yes! Pleaseee!

 

[ylop]

I’m no lawyer...but here’s a start...
Emergency Workers (Obstruction) Act 2006

Wrong jurisdiction, but there is similar legislation in Scotland. I don’t think it is used for (nor intended to be used for) people who call for help and then get a different type of assistance than they hoped or who change their mind about what help is needed. It’s used when people do stuff life throws fireworks at the fire brigade or punch a paramedic. It does not effectively give the RNLI (or a paramedic etc) the power to insist you do what they say.

 

[Bouba]

Wrong jurisdiction, but there is similar legislation in Scotland. I don’t think it is used for (nor intended to be used for) people who call for help and then get a different type of assistance than they hoped or who change their mind about what help is needed. It’s used when people do stuff life throws fireworks at the fire brigade or punch a paramedic. It does not effectively give the RNLI (or a paramedic etc) the power to insist you do what they say.

It can’t be the wrong help....who would a yachtsman expect to turn up if he calls help. Assuming he did that is. A boat full of people went out in treacherous conditions to assist....he refused to follow instructions while leading them onto the shallows. Perhaps there are some leftover wreaking laws still on the books

 

[dunedin]

It can’t be the wrong help....who would a yachtsman expect to turn up if he calls help. Assuming he did that is. A boat full of people went out in treacherous conditions to assist....he refused to follow instructions while leading them onto the shallows. Perhaps there are some leftover wreaking laws still on the books

You weren’t there and I doubt you know anything about the location, unlike some of us on here.
Perhaps he just called the coastguard to report dragging as a precautionary call, and the coastguard tasked the lifeboats. Or perhaps the nearby charter boat also at anchor called.
Scary situation but unless any other data probably never life threatening, and if anchor was reset I can understand how the skipper may have wanted to stay on board to try to protect the boat.
Some on here will know the lifeboat crews and the full facts, but not for posting unless the skipper agrees.

 

[Bouba]

You weren’t there and I doubt you know anything about the location, unlike some of us on here.
Perhaps he just called the coastguard to report dragging as a precautionary call, and the coastguard tasked the lifeboats. Or perhaps the nearby charter boat also at anchor called.
Scary situation but unless any other data probably never life threatening, and if anchor was reset I can understand how the skipper may have wanted to stay on board to try to protect the boat.
Some on here will know the lifeboat crews and the full facts, but not for posting unless the skipper agrees.

He was seriously enough injured to let them know

 

[capnsensible]

Assuming he did that is.

Assuming makes an ass of u and......ming.

 

[ProMariner]

Huge respect for all involved. For the sailor, it would have been very easy to give up the ship, I'm as guilty as anyone for prejudging skippers who get off before they have to, this guy seems to have balls of steel to stay onboard in these conditions. And for the lifeboat, it would have been extremely tricky to try to pick up a tow in that much wind, in a relatively light and high windage boat, with limited space to leeward, with an anchor line from the casualty ready to catch you out, it would have been very easy to make the situation worse, they didn't, and kept themselves out of trouble too, top marks.

The BBC article seemed a bit sensationalist though, some kind of click bait, hopefully an accurate and balanced version of events is published in the fullness of time, so we all may learn from it.

 

[noelex]

We have weathered a few storms in Loch Aline. It is a fantastic spot with 360° protection, but it can still become rough. It reached 81 knots during one storm. The photo below was taken when we were at anchor near the head of the loch during Storm Aiden.

Glad the boat survived; it looks like they dragged into the shallows not far from where our photo was taken. This would be hard to escape from in a strong wind, especially with one crew member injured.

 

[ylop]

It can’t be the Bwrong help....who would a yachtsman expect to turn up if he calls help.

What did he ask for (if he did)? He seems to have been satisfied with assistance resetting his anchor - perhaps that’s all he wanted? He is responsible for the vessel’s safety and his own safety.

A boat full of people went out in treacherous conditions to assist....he refused to follow instructions

We don’t actually know what instructions he was given and what he refused to do. The RNLI “M.O.” is not usually to instruct but rather to propose/discuss/agree. If the skipper doesn’t feel happy about transferring to the lifeboat in those conditions - is he wrong to insist on doing what he thinks is safest?

while leading them onto the shallows.

I don’t think he was leading them anywhere. The wind blew him into the shallows - it was gusting well over 60 knots in Oban, possibly more here. You’ve some how turned a sailor having a very bad day but resisting suggestions he abandon ship (possibly his home) into some sort of sinister attempt to harm the lifeboat crew.

 

[Bouba]

What did he ask for (if he did)? He seems to have been satisfied with assistance resetting his anchor - perhaps that’s all he wanted? He is responsible for the vessel’s safety and his own safety.

We don’t actually know what instructions he was given and what he refused to do. The RNLI “M.O.” is not usually to instruct but rather to propose/discuss/agree. If the skipper doesn’t feel happy about transferring to the lifeboat in those conditions - is he wrong to insist on doing what he thinks is safest?

I don’t think he was leading them anywhere. The wind blew him into the shallows - it was gusting well over 60 knots in Oban, possibly more here. You’ve some how turned a sailor having a very bad day but resisting suggestions he abandon ship (possibly his home) into some sort of sinister attempt to harm the lifeboat crew.

Do you know this guy ?....why are you going to bat for him ?....as far as I know, all the information we have is in that article...it might be wrong...I don’t know....but you don’t know either.
The article suggested that the life boat crew went out in treacherous conditions to rescue him because he was drifting and injured (his hand, which certainly handicaps you in controlling a sailboat)....and they stayed with him because he didn’t want to be rescued...while they were getting too close to shallow water. They then tried to tow him but conditions were against them.
Why have you made him the hero of your story ?....my thoughts are to the brave crew of the life boat...and probably their frustration at meeting another stubborn yachtsman.
I really can’t see your reasoning....if he didn’t call them...then he could have radioed them not to bother.

 

[ylop]

The BBC article seemed a bit sensationalist though, some kind of click bait, hopefully an accurate and balanced version of events is published in the fullness of time, so we all may learn from it.

The BBC article was pretty much a regurgitation of the Oban lifeboat press release. Tobermory lifeboat didn’t put out a press release as they had no power due to the winds. Was it sensationalised? Perhaps - although I imagine that after that job adrenaline was running high and I don’t think anyone would blame the Crew if they felt the sailor took unnecessary risks. It sounds like the sort of tasking that actually might benefit from a proper, full and frank debrief - was it right to request the lifeboat(s), should the DLA(s) have sought more information to confirm that help was wanted, did the coxswains get good comms with the skipper to establish his plan/wish, was evacuation a safer option, was the press release correct and did it achieve its purpose etc.

 

[Sea Change]

Do you know this guy ?....why are you going to bat for him ?....as far as I know, all the information we have is in that article...it might be wrong...I don’t know....but you don’t know either.
The article suggested that the life boat crew went out in treacherous conditions to rescue him because he was drifting and injured (his hand, which certainly handicaps you in controlling a sailboat)....and they stayed with him because he didn’t want to be rescued...while they were getting too close to shallow water. They then tried to tow him but conditions were against them.
Why have you made him the hero of your story ?....my thoughts are to the brave crew of the life boat...and probably their frustration at meeting another stubborn yachtsman.
I really can’t see your reasoning....if he didn’t call them...then he could have radioed them not to bother.

Having been on the receiving end of a lifeboat call out, it's quite hard to get them to stand down. They wanted to be absolutely sure that I was who I said I was and there was definitely no risk to life. They were all for carrying on.

What made it especially tricky was that I was 30 miles away from the boat, safely ashore. I only knew the shout had gone out because I happened to be at work with the son of the lifeboat cox, who passed it on to me. Even though I was able to speak directly with the cox, I couldn't get the shout cancelled until I had phoned Stornoway CG, who wanted my MMSI, which I couldn't remember off by heart. They were surprisingly persistent.

 

[Bouba]

Having been on the receiving end of a lifeboat call out, it's quite hard to get them to stand down. They wanted to be absolutely sure that I was who I said I was and there was definitely no risk to life. They were all for carrying on.

What made it especially tricky was that I was 30 miles away from the boat, safely ashore. I only knew the shout had gone out because I happened to be at work with the son of the lifeboat cox, who passed it on to me. Even though I was able to speak directly with the cox, I couldn't get the shout cancelled until I had phoned Stornoway CG, who wanted my MMSI, which I couldn't remember off by heart. They were surprisingly persistent.

That’s probably true of all the emergency services.....they have to be sure. How did your boat send out a mayday without you ?

 

[Bouba]

You weren’t there and I doubt you know anything about the location, unlike some of us on here.
Perhaps he just called the coastguard to report dragging as a precautionary call, and the coastguard tasked the lifeboats. Or perhaps the nearby charter boat also at anchor called.
Scary situation but unless any other data probably never life threatening, and if anchor was reset I can understand how the skipper may have wanted to stay on board to try to protect the boat.
Some on here will know the lifeboat crews and the full facts, but not for posting unless the skipper agrees.

With all respect, Dunedin ..... I don’t claim to know that local area...but I suspect that the life boat crew does....and that they assessed the situation....the drifting, the weather, the injury and the locale....and they decided to start a rescue. They didn’t call and ask me what I thought of a place I didn’t know.....but I would have, if asked, tell them not to take advice off Dunedin....because I’m from New Zealand...and I bloody well know where Dunedin is

 

[Mark L]

Why have you made him the hero of your story ?....my thoughts are to the brave crew of the life boat...and probably their frustration at meeting another stubborn yachtsman.
I really can’t see your reasoning....if he didn’t call them...then he could have radioed them not to bother.

Not necessarily the hero but perhaps not a villain either... I know the anchorage and this wasn't a life and death situation. At worst he was looking at damage to the yacht and an uncomfortable grounding. Entirely possible that he put out a pan-pan requesting a tow and needed nothing more. I suspect that in the same situation (and with an injury), I might have considered transferring to another vessel in those conditions to be more of a risk than staying put.

The RNLI crews are undoubtedly brave to go out in that weather and they are certainly well trained but they don't always know best. I have seen them make a situation worse when they refused to step back and leave it to someone in a better position to help. I would give huge weight to advice from a lifeboat crew, but I would not entirely abandon my own judgement and knowledge.

 

[Bouba]

Not necessarily the hero but perhaps not a villain either... I know the anchorage and this wasn't a life and death situation. At worst he was looking at damage to the yacht and an uncomfortable grounding. Entirely possible that he put out a pan-pan requesting a tow and needed nothing more. I suspect that in the same situation (and with an injury), I might have considered transferring to another vessel in those conditions to be more of a risk than staying put.

The RNLI crews are undoubtedly brave to go out in that weather and they are certainly well trained but they don't always know best. I have seen them make a situation worse when they refused to step back and leave it to someone in a better position to help. I would certainly give huge weight to advice from a lifeboat crew, but I would certainly not entirely abandon my own judgement and knowledge.

I agree....like those few instances where firefighters have told people not to leave a burning building....I would have ignored them (I hope)
I am not 100% certain...but, I don’t think the RNLI regard themselves as a towing service....so calling them up for a tow (or calling them and hoping you can ‘persuade’ them to tow you) is wrong...in my opinion

 

[ylop]

Do you know this guy ?

No

....why are you going to bat for him ?.

I don’t think I am but you’ve accused him of a crime!

...as far as I know, all the information we have is in that article...it might be wrong...I don’t know....but you don’t know either.

Correct so where is the crime?

The article suggested that the life boat crew went out in treacherous conditions to rescue him

They did. That is not in dispute.

because he was drifting

Nobody reported drifting - the report was than his anchor had dragged (past tense not that he was continuing to drag or was aground)

and injured (his hand, which certainly handicaps you in controlling a sailboat)...

Correct - that much implies that someone had spoken to the skipper because you couldn’t determine that from a shore report alone, although we don’t actually know when the rescue services became aware of this fact - but we don’t know that anyone asked him if we wanted a lifeboat to come and get him. Logic would suggest he did not - because once there was lifeboat he did not want to be evacuated.

.and they stayed with him because he didn’t want to be rescued...while they were getting too close to shallow water.

That’s not what the press release says - it says if he dragged further he’d be too shallow for them to get to… but that would mean he was in standing depth and could walk/swim/dinghy ashore (wouldn’t be my choice but it’s not a particularly evil shoreline and I think you could get to a track easily enough - I am sure there is a local CG rescue team who were presumably also deployed who’d have met him and warmed him up!)

They then tried to tow him but conditions were against them.

correct - so at that point he’s gone from being anchored but not where he’d like to be and at risk to now being adrift in the middle of the loch and having to sort himself out which he seemed to do.

Why have you made him the hero of your story ?...

I haven’t made him the hero - I thought he was bonkers when I first read the story yesterday, I still think he was bonkers. BUT in fact he survived the experience which maybe means he was not wrong. We don’t have his side of the story at all. However you have accused him of a crime (albeit one that probably doesn’t exist). He’s not here to defend himself and I feel it’s only fair that someone stands up and says you are talking nonsense.

.my thoughts are to the brave crew of the life boat...and probably their frustration at meeting another stubborn yachtsman.

I have a huge amount of appreciation for the crew and the predicament they found themselves in. I’m very grateful that if I find myself in such a situation that they will come out (and they needn’t worry - I’d be getting off!) but RNLI crew are not infallible.

I might wonder if Stornoway Coastguard over reacted or the DLAs missed an opportunity to ask more questions before putting the crew in harms way but that’s easy to say from the comfort of my armchair with hindsight. It would seem obvious that the skipper would want evacuated, but the CG often ask what assistance you require for a reason - they aren’t the person on the ground who ultimately decides if you are stepping off or not.

I really can’t see your reasoning....if he didn’t call them...then he could have radioed them not to bother.

Well it is strange that two lifeboats came out and he didn’t actually seem to want them - like perhaps nobody bothered to ask him, or they did and didn’t believe his answer and thought they could talk him round. Since nobody seems to have heard the comms we don’t know what he said to them or the watch room - somehow you believe he’s said “come get me” and then when they appeared said “Jesus I didn’t think you’d actually turn up - I was just testing you!”. Of all the likely scenarios it seems a bit far fetched.

 

[ylop]

With all respect, Dunedin ..... I don’t claim to know that local area...but I suspect that the life boat crew does....and that they assessed the situation....the drifting, the weather, the injury and the locale....and they decided to start a rescue.

Actually someone in Stornoway decided that - someone who quite possibly has never been to Lochaline - it’s a bloody long journey! We don’t know why they decided it merited a rescue, certainly nobody wants to be the ops room guy who took a call that was for information only, escalates to a fatality and hadn’t acted quicker. Then they call the launch authority in Tobermory who will know the area and of course thinks whatever version of events they got merits the lifeboat. Nobody at this point seems to have worked out that the depths would make more sense to sent the shallower draft Oban boat (which is roughly equidistant). Nor does the cox of the Tobermory boat (who will also know the area) until he’s on scene…. Now the Oban launch authority gets a call and is told Tobermory asked for them I suspect they didn’t say “and does the guy actually want rescued”, it’s a neighbouring station asking for support in nightmare conditions so Obans crew get sent with a bunch of Chinese whispers to a guy who may never have asked for help, and now someone is telling him he should abandon his boat, which is currently not drifting.

They didn’t call and ask me what I thought of a place I didn’t know.....

I am relieved. But would you have suggested to check what the guy was expecting?

 

[penberth3]

Having been on the receiving end of a lifeboat call out, it's quite hard to get them to stand down. They wanted to be absolutely sure that I was who I said I was and there was definitely no risk to life. They were all for carrying on.

What made it especially tricky was that I was 30 miles away from the boat, safely ashore. I only knew the shout had gone out because I happened to be at work with the son of the lifeboat cox, who passed it on to me. Even though I was able to speak directly with the cox, I couldn't get the shout cancelled until I had phoned Stornoway CG, who wanted my MMSI, which I couldn't remember off by heart. They were surprisingly persistent.

Not sure what your point is, but I can't see a problem with any of that?

 

[Sea Change]

That’s probably true of all the emergency services.....they have to be sure. How did your boat send out a mayday without you ?

It didn't.
I'd just laid a new mooring and we had what we call 'a good drying day', blowing about 70kt. The ground chain straightened out and a keen eyed and well meaning bystander called it in because they thought the boat was dragging. It was all a bit of a fuss over nothing- the boat probably moved less than its own length. I know for a fact that the mooring didn't drag, I had just laid it myself and you could genuinely tie a ferry up to it. Still, it's nice that people try to do the right thing.