Would you have stayed on board?

[Sea Change]

Not sure what your point is, but I can't see a problem with any of that?

I suppose my point is that, in my experience, the RNLI crew will go out on a shout with very little persuasion. In my case it was a call from a land based passer by. The boat was unoccupied, there was no dinghy on the back, and it was not actually dragging. It resulted in a shout lasting several hours anyway. I was only able to cancel it by speaking directly with the CG and persuading them that it was my yacht and nobody was on board.

In relation to this story, my point is that we cannot assume that the skipper asked for help. The CG will send the lifeboat out based on the merest hint of a boat in trouble. I mean, it's a good problem to have, I suppose, and I'm grateful, but we can't just conclude that the yacht sent a mayday.

 

[Bouba]

It didn't.
I'd just laid a new mooring and we had what we call 'a good drying day', blowing about 70kt. The ground chain straightened out and a keen eyed and well meaning bystander called it in because they thought the boat was dragging. It was all a bit of a fuss over nothing- the boat probably moved less than its own length. I know for a fact that the mooring didn't drag, I had just laid it myself and you could genuinely tie a ferry up to it. Still, it's nice that people try to do the right thing.

I thought it might be like that famous situation in America….where a rescue swimmer just doing his final exams sees a motorboat in trouble and rescues the man onboard despite the boat doing a 360 degree in a giant wave….and it turned out that the rescued man was a boat thief

 

[Bouba]

No

I don’t think I am but you’ve accused him of a crime!

Correct so where is the crime?

They did. That is not in dispute.

Nobody reported drifting - the report was than his anchor had dragged (past tense not that he was continuing to drag or was aground)

Correct - that much implies that someone had spoken to the skipper because you couldn’t determine that from a shore report alone, although we don’t actually know when the rescue services became aware of this fact - but we don’t know that anyone asked him if we wanted a lifeboat to come and get him. Logic would suggest he did not - because once there was lifeboat he did not want to be evacuated.

That’s not what the press release says - it says if he dragged further he’d be too shallow for them to get to… but that would mean he was in standing depth and could walk/swim/dinghy ashore (wouldn’t be my choice but it’s not a particularly evil shoreline and I think you could get to a track easily enough - I am sure there is a local CG rescue team who were presumably also deployed who’d have met him and warmed him up!)

correct - so at that point he’s gone from being anchored but not where he’d like to be and at risk to now being adrift in the middle of the loch and having to sort himself out which he seemed to do.

I haven’t made him the hero - I thought he was bonkers when I first read the story yesterday, I still think he was bonkers. BUT in fact he survived the experience which maybe means he was not wrong. We don’t have his side of the story at all. However you have accused him of a crime (albeit one that probably doesn’t exist). He’s not here to defend himself and I feel it’s only fair that someone stands up and says you are talking nonsense.

I have a huge amount of appreciation for the crew and the predicament they found themselves in. I’m very grateful that if I find myself in such a situation that they will come out (and they needn’t worry - I’d be getting off!) but RNLI crew are not infallible.

I might wonder if Stornoway Coastguard over reacted or the DLAs missed an opportunity to ask more questions before putting the crew in harms way but that’s easy to say from the comfort of my armchair with hindsight. It would seem obvious that the skipper would want evacuated, but the CG often ask what assistance you require for a reason - they aren’t the person on the ground who ultimately decides if you are stepping off or not.

Well it is strange that two lifeboats came out and he didn’t actually seem to want them - like perhaps nobody bothered to ask him, or they did and didn’t believe his answer and thought they could talk him round. Since nobody seems to have heard the comms we don’t know what he said to them or the watch room - somehow you believe he’s said “come get me” and then when they appeared said “Jesus I didn’t think you’d actually turn up - I was just testing you!”. Of all the likely scenarios it seems a bit far fetched.

I have never seen someone beat a point to death as much as you.....everything I said came from the only evidence we have....everything you say comes from reading between the lines

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Folks have down played the danger. The guy anchored beside a leeshore, significant wind speeds and waves, Falling in and drowning, death from hypothermia, falling and injury or death from striking a hard surface were potential consequences if the boat had run aground.

Access to the area would have been difficult, single track road, a long drive from anywhere such as the CG rescue team at Fort William, floods and tree debris to navigate, no direct access to the beech.

The RNLI were right to ask him to abandon because the boats location had a lot of factors running against a successful outcome.

It took a lot of guts to say no by the skipper. However, I can imagine he was best placed to make that decision. I don’t think he needs to be blamed for wasting the RNLI’s time. Nor the RNLI blamed for asking him to abandon the boat. The RNLI were on his boat, according to the text below a picture in the link. More assistance was given than just the tow and I wonder if the anchor was redeployed.

It would be interesting to know all the details, but not sure we will ever get to know.

 

[Mark-1]

I am not 100% certain...but, I don’t think the RNLI regard themselves as a towing service....

Towing is a completely normal/typical way to carry out a rescue.

I'd guess taking people off is less common than towing by a large margin.

 

[chriss999]

I have never seen someone beat a point to death as much as you.....everything I said came from the only evidence we have....everything you say comes from reading between the lines

How is that dead horse of yours? Pulling its weight yet?

 

[Mark L]

The RNLI were on his boat, according to the text below a picture in the link. More assistance was given than just the tow and I wonder if the anchor was redeployed.

It isn't clear, but I think that is a misunderstanding of the caption. The photo is of "A crewmember inside the cabin of the lifeboat" and their colleagues "standing on the bow of the vessel". That refers to the bow of the lifeboat (which is supported by the photo). No suggestion that the RNLI crew were able to transfer to the yacht and the other photo showed the skipper of the yacht handling lines on the foredeck.

Again, I know the anchorage, and I think that the dangers of staying put (relative to trying to transfer) are being overstated (not by the RNLI I should add). There was little (if any) risk to the integrity of the yacht. In his situation, and if a grounding looked inevitable, I would have put up the lee cloth in a sheltered berth and waited it out. Very little risk of falling in from down below.

 

[RunAgroundHard]

… Again, I know the anchorage, and I think that the dangers of staying put (relative to trying to transfer) are being overstated (not by the RNLI I should add). There was little (if any) risk to the integrity of the yacht. In his situation, and if a grounding looked inevitable, I would have put up the lee cloth in a sheltered berth and waited it out. Very little risk of falling in from down below.

I know the anchorage very well. I was also further down the coast on my boat and experienced the weather. I think you are being simplistic with the risks and ignorant of the threat to the skipper if the boat grounded on a Lee shore on that night.

We will just have to disagree.

 

[Whaup367]

I have to admit that I'm surprised a Shannon wasn't able to tow a moderately sized yacht upwind, even in these winds.
I appreciate that conditions were extreme and that lifeboats are not tugs but I would have expected that to be possible (twin 650hp diesel waterjets).

So, that's an interesting thing to learn.

There's no mention of a Mayday call (though vessel at risk would warrant it?) It seems quite possible that the skipper called the coastguard at the point when he was injured and dragging with the wind causing more issues than he expected. To have delayed might have been irresponsible. We don't know what assistance was requested (perhaps a tow?) and it would appear the situation was improved after the failed towing attempts.
I can't see the criticism being justified. Perhaps Lochaline was a poor decision? It's not obvious to me that that's the case, presumably that's down to my inexperience but I've anchored there in settled conditions, looked at the chart & maps and my thinking would have been that it was a better option than many alternatives which may, or may not, have been open to him.
A lot of the commentary assumes he asked to be taken off the boat, that this was clearly what was needed and that he then refused. I haven't seen anything to support the first two assumptions.
If your boat is being driven ashore, is it reasonable to call the coastguard?
If you dont believe your life is a risk, it's it reasonable to refuse evacuation?

 

[dgadee]

You have to be careful of interpreting the information given out. The RNLI in my case seemed to have told the local paper that there were two on board. I hadn't said anything to my wife about the incident but she saw a picture of the boat being brought into harbour in that local paper, noting there were two people on board. She said - that looks like our boat! I had to admit it was. Two people, she said!! You were supposed to be alone!!

 

[Mark-1]

I have to admit that I'm surprised a Shannon wasn't able to tow a moderately sized yacht upwind, even in these winds.
I appreciate that conditions were extreme and that lifeboats are not tugs but I would have expected that to be possible (twin 650hp diesel waterjets).

I thought that. In the photo in the original press release the sea state looks fine. The water along the waterline of the boat is pretty much flat. The visible waves don't look big. The boat doesn't appear to be violently pitching. You'd think it could be towed without ripping the cleats off.

As for the capabilities of the Shannon I wonder at which point in this video was the water too shallow:

I think RNLI press releases are a written by volunteers and it often shows.

 

[Bouba]

In normal circumstances if the water is deep enough for a finned sailboat....a motorboat shouldn’t have a problem. But this was reported as a violent storm...so waves crashing onshore would limit how close you can go...and the troughs would have exposed the sea floor.
But the only thing that really matters is the decision of the coxswain....and they tend to be fearless chaps

 

[Minerva]

You have to be careful of interpreting the information given out. The RNLI in my case seemed to have told the local paper that there were two on board. I hadn't said anything to my wife about the incident but she saw a picture of the boat being brought into harbour in that local paper, noting there were two people on board. She said - that looks like our boat! I had to admit it was. Two people, she said!! You were supposed to be alone!!

What a way to be busted!

 

[Mark-1]

In normal circumstances if the water is deep enough for a finned sailboat....a motorboat shouldn’t have a problem. But this was reported as a violent storm...so waves crashing onshore would limit how close you can go...and the troughs would have exposed the sea floor.
But the only thing that really matters is the decision of the coxswain....and they tend to be fearless chaps

Well yes but the press release says the tow was already underway and they cut the tow because they weren't making progress. So at that point depth wasn't the problem, tow "umph" was.

 

[Bouba]

Well yes but the press release says the tow was already underway and they cut the tow because they weren't making progress. So at that point depth wasn't the problem, tow "umph" was.

The other thing I wonder about is the yachtsman’s hand injury....did it require the life boat crew to go abord to secure the tow line ?

 

[Mark-1]

The other thing I wonder about is the yachtsman’s hand injury....did it require the life boat crew to go abord to secure the tow line ?

We don't know. We also don't know if the Yachtsman was fully mobile in general. For all we know he was waiting for a new hip and preferred to hobble ashore through surf from wrecked boat to jumping onto a Lifeboat.

We know bugger all.

AFAIC the Lifeboat was perfectly reasonable to want to evacuate him and he was perfectly reasonable to request help (if he did) and also to choose to stay put. As luck would have it his choice turned out fine.

If there's any blame here it's the RYA press officer. They've left out a bunch of useful detail and made the yachtsman look bad in some people's eyes. But they're a volunteer so we can give them a pass.

 

[Bouba]

We don't know. We also don't know if the Yachtsman was fully mobile in general. For all we know he was waiting for a new hip and preferred to hobble ashore through surf from wrecked boat to jumping onto a Lifeboat.

We know bugger all.

AFAIC the Lifeboat was perfectly reasonable to want to evacuate him and he was perfectly reasonable to request help (if he did) and also to choose to stay put. As luck would have it his choice turned out fine.

If there's any blame here it's the RYA press officer. They've left out a bunch of useful detail and made the yachtsman look bad in some people's eyes. But they're a volunteer so we can give them a pass.

I agree...but want to add more what ifs.....does the yacht have an electric winch ?...did the hand injury prevent the yachtsman from retrieving his anchor and therefore not reset it ?....did the Coxswain think that if the yacht can’t be anchored then it’s at risk ?

 

[LittleSister]

A boat full of people went out in treacherous conditions to assist....he refused to follow instructions while leading them onto the shallows. Perhaps there are some leftover wreaking laws still on the books

The RNLI has no authority to issue 'instructions'. They can offer advice. They can make requests.

The skipper has the authority, and the responsibility, to make the decisions he or she thinks best for the ship and its crew in all the circumstances.

I have been on the receiving end of an unwanted lifeboat call out (many years ago, on a friend's boat). I don't blame the CG for erring on the side of caution and calling on the RNLI when we certainly hadn't requested or expected that, and I don't blame the RNLI crew for offering a tow, even though we weren't seeking assistance. Everyone one was doing the 'right thing' given their limited knowledge of the situation (except, perhaps, clarifying what the 'situation' actually was!). In the event we sheepishly accepted the tow to harbour, not out of need, but out of embarrassment they'd been called out and becasue it would mean we'd get to harbour and bed a few hours earlier. (A generous donation of cash and alcoholic beverage was made by the skipper to the RNLI and crew for their trouble.)

In other circumstances, I would refuse a lifeboat's offer of help if I felt that help would, in my judgement, put the yacht or crew in unnecessary danger. That would be a tough call to make in the face of the lifeboat crew's advice, especially if I had requested assistance, but the skipper's job is to make the calls, whether they're easy or (fortunately rarely) really tough.

In the case we are discussing we simply don't know enough to judge whether, given all the circumstances, we would make the same decisions as the skipper at any stage in the proceedings.

His decisions, whether by luck or good judgement, turned out well. We can applaud the RNLI for heading out in horrendous conditions, and the CG for requesting they do so, all with the best of intentions, and again it turned out well. Everyone did 'the right thing', and it turned out well. We don't need to 'pick sides', and even if we wanted to we don't have the information to credibly prefer one party over the other.

 

[NormanS]

Interesting that some on here have looked at a chart, and have said that the OP shouldn't have chosen to be in Loch Aline for the forecast wind.
I have anchored in L Aline with several boats, over many years, literally several hundred times in fair weather and foul.
Loch Aline is a fairly small, totally landlocked Loch with plenty of space and generally excellent holding in reasonabledepth. It's not an unusual anchorage to make for if bad weather is expected.
However, although it's not a large stretch of water, in the conditions of Storm Amy, the modest fetch would make it very unpleasant if you were at the wrong end.
Storm Amy started off with the wind from the SE, and quite suddenly veered round to the NW. To be safe, secure and comfortable it would be necessary to move from one end or side of the loch to the other. That is not an unusual scenario.
Like all on here, I don't know the intricate facts, so will not judge. I do take issue with those with little or no local knowledge, who are willing to condemn the OP for choosing to be in Loch Aline.

 

[dunedin]

Towing is a completely normal/typical way to carry out a rescue.

I'd guess taking people off is less common than towing by a large margin.

But in the specific circumstances and location it is far from clear what use a tow would have provided, except to help reset the anchor further out.
Loch Aline is entirely enclosed with a narrow / shallow access channel. The maximum fetch for a wave was about 1.5m.
The Lochaline pontoons were apparently damaged. If towing within the Locha was tricky, trying to tow through the narrow gap would be massively more so. And what then? The conditions would have been doubly massively worse trying to tow back to Oban - in my view much more dangerous than blowing ashore on the soft mud in Locha Aline. It would be very likely for the tow to break free (by breaking off all deck fixings) going through the strong tides and rocky sections of the lower Sound of Mull and Lismore gap. The boat could easily have foundered under tow.
So where precisely could they have towed to that wasn’t worse than where the boat already was?

Also, I don’t know if the boat did end up dragging ashore. But the Oban lifeboat left just after midnight and, from AIS tracks, neither lifeboat returned at HW as might have happened to refloat a boat. Hence it is quite possible that the reset anchor held and the boat was able to depart safely when the wind dropped.

I have a huge respect for the RNLI crews, and know some of the people (though not sure if any were on board at the time and not asked them, due to confidentiality).
The hard working Oban RNLI lifeboat was out on two consecutive nights just ahead of Amy with yachts dragging in strong winds (but not severe storms) - the other difference being they were close to if not on solid rock, rather than mud - one near Kerrera and one by Lismore.
The lifeboat crew did an incredible rescue of the second skipper apparently from a boat already ashore on the rocks, and in an exposure to swell from the South effectively to Antarctica! Not sure how that boat got there but a very dangerous situation with the boat reported as subsequently sinking. A great rescue and probably life saved by Oban RNLI crew. But a much more dangerous exposed location, fortunately in much lesser winds.