Woodwork refurbishing, my recent PowerPoint presentation.

[laika]

2 months doesn't count as a resurrection does it? "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead".

I note that you used a Morrells acid catalyst lacquer. Some years ago Trafalgar sold me symphony coatings satin pre-catalysed lacquer MN2002-0040 which they claimed was what westerly used (I'm guessing they used several different products at different points) and I used to reasonably good effect (given my lack of natural talent) on a couple of things. I'm a rank amateur when it comes to this kind of thing: Would there be merit to one product over the other and what kind of shelf life do they have?

 

[Concerto]

2 months doesn't count as a resurrection does it? "There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead".

I note that you used a Morrells acid catalyst lacquer. Some years ago Trafalgar sold me symphony coatings satin pre-catalysed lacquer MN2002-0040 which they claimed was what westerly used (I'm guessing they used several different products at different points) and I used to reasonably good effect (given my lack of natural talent) on a couple of things. I'm a rank amateur when it comes to this kind of thing: Would there be merit to one product over the other and what kind of shelf life do they have?

2 months is not resurrection. I have not heard of Symphony Coatings doing a lacquer, but they do produce Jotun, Hempel, Sikkens, so quite possible. The reference number or satin pre-catalysed lacquer do not produce any products, but they do sell a German brand Hesse-Lignal that produce lacquers.

This is the latest piece finished yesterday with Morrells, it is the port side main cabin berth front that pulls out to make a double berth. Looks good for being 40 years old sapele plywood.

 

[fredrussell]

Manu thanks Concerto, the last shot of her looks fantastic. A job well done.

 

[laika]

The reference number or satin pre-catalysed lacquer do not produce any products, but they do sell a German brand Hesse-Lignal that produce lacquers.

What I have is this:
NM2002-0040 - Symphony Coatings
No price mentioned so maybe they don't make it any more. I must have bought it maybe 6+ years ago and last used it 5 years ago (so maybe that's past its tin life).

That was my only experience of lacquer: I used a brush and it wasn't too bad. I was wondering what the differences in ease of use vs other factors might be when comparing acid catylyst vs a pre-cataysed lacquer (which I note that morrells also do).

Hmm after a bit more research of all the the options even within the morrells range I'm even more confused by all the alternatives. I notice they offer a pre-catalysed lacquer formulated for brushing.

 

[Concerto]

What I have is this:
NM2002-0040 - Symphony Coatings
No price mentioned so maybe they don't make it any more. I must have bought it maybe 6+ years ago and last used it 5 years ago (so maybe that's past its tin life).

That was my only experience of lacquer: I used a brush and it wasn't too bad. I was wondering what the differences in ease of use vs other factors might be when comparing acid catylyst vs a pre-cataysed lacquer (which I note that morrells also do).

Hmm after a bit more research of all the the options even within the morrells range I'm even more confused by all the alternatives. I notice they offer a pre-catalysed lacquer formulated for brushing.

I agree the available finishes are very confusing. The information on Morrells is from the Fulmar Inadee web site in the list of suppliers he had identified. Suppliers

Details of the standing and running rigging, plus the sail dimensions is so useful for other Fulmar owners. The creator of the web site sold Inadee several years ago but has kept the information online.
Fulmar Yacht Inadee

It does seem all lacquers are best sprayed, but a good finish can be achieved with brushing. After stripping back to bare wood and checking no old finish is left on the wood, I find the first coat soaks in. The second coat would be applied a few hours later and once dry is lightly sanded before the third and final coat. The specification says it has a pot life of over 24 hours, however I found that after 10 minutes the mix is starting to thicken and does not apply as smoothly. My preference is to not add thinners, but mix small amounts and quickly apply. The largest quantity I mix is 60ml and that goes quite a long way and also helps reduce wasteage. A small measuring cup and small syringe, along with a stirrer is all you need. Another trick I use is to keep the brush in thinners and dry it off on kitchen paper when I need to use .

 

[LittleSister]

Concerto, you mention having to clear out the finish from dents and dings that the sanding misses. Did you attempt to fill such dents at all, or just give them the same finish as the 'surface' wood?

 

[Concerto]

Concerto, you mention having to clear out the finish from dents and dings that the sanding misses. Did you attempt to fill such dents at all, or just give them the same finish as the 'surface' wood?

No I never fill any of the dents as it shows more than having a slight dent. The dents do not show and the woodwork is 40 years old and cannot be expected to be perfect either. Scratches are slightly different, and are almost impossible to hide, I just have to accept them.

I am not looking forward to the screw holes in the bulkhead at the front of the chart table, there are over 60 to fill and colour match. Oh, that will only take a couple of minutes, ha,ha.

 

[LittleSister]

Looking at your helpful photos, and your impressive results, makes me think -

a) It's really worthwhile to do it: it makes such a difference.

and -

b) If you do one bit, it shows up all the rest, so once you start you're committed to doing the whole boat!

Also, I can now see that much of my woodwork is Sapele.

Thanks a lot for taking the time to post your photos and explanations.

 

[chrishscorp]

Thank you for this (and for what you've published previously): I am clueless when it comes to woodwork having given it up at school at the earliest opportunity and the clarity with which you've explained what you've done with concerto has inspired me to sort out my own tired looking woodwork when I'm allowed back to my boat.

You've also reminded me that perhaps I shouldn't just be ignoring WOA mails as I can now attend meetings without leaving the flat (and sorry that that is what I must have done as I missed your presentation)

If you log in to the website you will find there is the start of a library of zoom talks on a variety of subjects. Log in is with the WOA membership number and your existing pasword

 

[yanay]

Excellent work and a very useful PPT. the galley layout on my 1979 Conway is identical. However there's much water damage and the veneer not only separated and peeling, it seems to be deformed, wavy, and I suppose cannot be reglued as you suggested. Should I peel it all off and glue a new sheet?
Further, I have dismantled the starboard cabinets in the main cabin to access the leaky Chainplates below deck. There is some water damage on those cabinets as well as the horizontal surface they sit on (image) which i am retabbing to the hull as FG lifted. They are all veneered although these facets are not visible. The veneer is peeling and damaged. What is the best way to treat these surfaces before reassembling them?

 

[Concerto]

If the veneer is delaminating and wavy, then it is starting to break down and has lost its structural strength. If you can access the end of the plywood, you could try injecting some PVA woodworking glue using a syringe between the laminations and then cramping before leaving to dry. If this does not work, then you should replace the plywood.

When fibreglassing your chainplates, do make sure you have ground away all loose fibreglass. Are you using polyester resin or epoxy? Polyester has a slower cure rate and bonds quite well to old fibreglass. Epoxy has a stronger bond but is more critical in getting the mix correct, and is a lot more expensive.

PS I have added this thread to my About Me page beside the PowerPoint presentaion as it may assist others with the information discussed here,

 

[yanay]

If the veneer is delaminating and wavy, then it is starting to break down and has lost its structural strength. If you can access the end of the plywood, you could try injecting some PVA woodworking glue using a syringe between the laminations and then cramping before leaving to dry. If this does not work, then you should replace the plywood.

When fibreglassing your chainplates, do make sure you have ground away all loose fibreglass. Are you using polyester resin or epoxy? Polyester has a slower cure rate and bonds quite well to old fibreglass. Epoxy has a stronger bond but is more critical in getting the mix correct, and is a lot more expensive.

PS I have added this thread to my About Me page beside the PowerPoint presentaion as it may assist others with the information discussed here,

Hi
The plywood is in good condition. Somehow the water damage was limited to the veneer and may have also caused the FG tab between the hull and the cabinets base shelf to lift. Westerly glassed on top of the veneer. There were small X's cut into it maybe to get better FG to veneer bonding. I did not attempt to restore the lifted veneer. I removed the lifted sections and exposed bare plywood and today I laid new FG tabs on it.
The chainplates do not need FG. They are SS bolted below deck and attached to a rod which is attached to a 1 inch plywood tabbed to the hill and the length beam. These are not compromised. So far one chainplate threaded rod disintegrated and will be made new. Also 80% of nuts and bolts are SS 304 A2 and crumbling.
Was wondering about rejuvenating the woodwork, regardless of the chainplates.
I have also water damage to the veneer in the galley. It looks like the only option is to remove the damaged veneer and glue new sheets on the plywood. I've never done this before.

 

[Concerto]

What you have described is a typical Westerly build. Westerly were very good builders and did not skimp on the quality of materials. The plywood was true marine grade, unlike to so called marine plywood sold today by many timber merchants. The original quality plywood is still available from Robbins at a price, Westerly bought their plywood from Robbins.

I would be very surprised that Westerly used A2 stainless. I expect you have suffered from crevice corrosion. Crevice corrosion is a localized attack on a metal surface at, or immediately adjacent to, the gap or crevice between two joining surfaces when exposed to a stagnant electrolyte like sea water. To prevent electolysis to the aluminium window frames Westerly did not use stainless steel inter screws but chrome plated brass. It was attention to detail like this that suggests they would not have skimped on the using a cheaper grade of stainless. Your boat, like my Fulmar, would have been fitted with a Blakes toilet with Blakes seacocks. These were the most expensive of all toilet fittings at the time of build and prohibatively expensive today. To prevent leaks from fittings they glassfibred over the nuts on all bolted fittings, but this can cause crevice corrosion. It can be seen easily on the teak toe rail or rubbing strake as black staining around the covering teak plugs. No other builder then or today were as thorough in the build quality as Westerly.

This article by vyv_cox, of this forum, is worth reading on crevice corrosion.
Crevice corrosion

Looking at this galley photo I would try stripping the lacquer off the bulkhead and then see how the veneer looks. Personally I would give this a try and if it does not work you can then try adding a new sapele veneer. The solid timber and drawer/cupboard should clean up no problem.

 

[MADRIGAL]

Earlier this week I gave a Zoom talk to the Westerly Owners Association and a hundred people watched. This is the PowerPoint presentation I created for it. You may find it helpful if you want to tackle looking after your woodwork inside and out.
https://wiki.westerly-owners.co.uk/images/2/25/Interior_Woodwork_Concerto_PowerPoint.pdf

That was brilliant, Concerto. I have no experience with lacquer, but you make a persuasive case for it. As all the brightwork on a Wayfarer is exterior, I will have to stick with varnish.

Like you, I prefer an oil-based varnish instead of polyurethane; it is more flexible and doesn't crack as readily. By the way, I like the idea of the snap knife for dings. Thanks again.

 

[yanay]

Indeed Westerly's quality is evident on my boat and I constantly appreciate it. The A2 bolts on the chainplates is a known issue. However, the plates themselves are in near new condition as well as the rod to the bulkhead, apart from the threaded section where the nuts are, so far only discovered on one of the plates, as these were devoid of oxygen.
The galley veneer is in bad condition and likely must be removed and reinstalling new veneer is the only option. What do you recommend for glue for the new veneer? What type of veneer cut should I purchase?
Regarding the cabinets boxes which are not visible, would it be good practice to peel off the lifted veneer and cover the exposed plywood with clear epoxy?

 

[Concerto]

If the galley front still has the veneer fully bonded, you can clean the surface and bond the new veneer to this. You have choices with veneer. You can buy plain veneer and then bond it using either a contact adhesive or PVA woodworking glue. The alternative is buy pre-coated veneer heat activated glue that can be bonded by using a domestic iron. The problem with using a contact adhesive is ensuring the application of the adhesive is smooth, but it is quick with a goor bond. PVA glue is slower drying and needs a board pressed against the galley front to ensure a good bond. My preference would be the heat activated veneer. You need to buy quarter cut sapele.

With regard to the cabinet boxes, the veneer is only decorate not a structural part of the plywood so can be removed. Westerly probably used offcuts of veneered plywood. A coating of epoxy should be fine as the epoxy will not be exposed to sunlight. If it was it would require an opaque paint covering to stop UV damage.

 

[TiggerToo]

If the galley front still has the veneer fully bonded, you can clean the surface and bond the new veneer to this. You have choices with veneer. You can buy plain veneer and then bond it using either a contact adhesive or PVA woodworking glue. The alternative is buy pre-coated veneer heat activated glue that can be bonded by using a domestic iron. The problem with using a contact adhesive is ensuring the application of the adhesive is smooth, but it is quick with a goor bond. PVA glue is slower drying and needs a board pressed against the galley front to ensure a good bond. My preference would be the heat activated veneer. You need to buy quarter cut sapele.

With regard to the cabinet boxes, the veneer is only decorate not a structural part of the plywood so can be removed. Westerly probably used offcuts of veneered plywood. A coating of epoxy should be fine as the epoxy will not be exposed to sunlight. If it was it would require an opaque paint covering to stop UV damage.

I am interested in trying this out on Tigger. What sort of preparation would you recommend for the existing veneer?