Windlass only works if engine running

[Irish Rover]

Based on having owned a 38' cat.

If you use one engine then at low speeds you will simply go round in circles. Thinking you can develop control, under sail, in a crowded anchorage without both engines available is madness. If you need to take in, or put out a few meters of chain - do it by hand or use the manual operation common to virtually all windlass.

We would always have both engines running, in neutral, entering any anchorage and be able the engage gear when necessary. We would similarly have both engines running when departing an anchorage - in both cases its easier when shorthanded - and it reduces stress on the battery bank. Similarly we would always have the main set until at anchor and before lifting an anchor.

I cannot think of much justification for not have the engines running though to us it was not demanded by windlass wiring but simply what we considered was good seamanship.

The idea of being a purist and sailing to anchor - is fine in a large empty anchorage (and good practice). Real life suggests that considering the nearby yachts and the ability of plans to go pear shaped (what are you going to do if the anchor fouls) then there is a reason to have auxiliary diesels and use them.

View attachment 177537

Jonathan

You're clearly a very experienced and knowledgeable boater with a lot of wisdom to contribute and share but your "my way or the highway" approach is very off putting.

 

[Neeves]

They may be occasions when you need to drop anchor in an emergency, i want to just drop it, i don't want to mess around staring the engines. What about if the reason for the emergency is that the engine has just failed and you can't sail, can't get the sails up quickly, or you are a motor boat.

That's what the clutch is for. Release, instant drop, gravity does the work. And/or loosen and drop under control.

Sadly does not work in reverse. Retrieving manually is a pain.

 

[Neeves]

You're clearly a very experienced and knowledgeable boater with a lot of wisdom to contribute and share but your "my way or the highway" approach is very off putting.

Try sailing a 43' catamaran in a crowded anchorage and you will find that its madness. Use the engines - there is no other way.

Jonathan

 

[john_morris_uk]

In fact, if you motor up to the anchor, or if the wind is very light, the power draw is minimal, no where near the peak draw. You really should only be near peak for a few moments.

Disconnect the interlock and then be smart.

Sadly there are people on this forum who will swear blind that you don’t need to motor up to the anchor. However I’ve just delivered a very well sorted ocesn going 78 foot 80 tonne boat and the hydraulic windlass simply couldn’t pull the boat up to the anchor without engine assist. Raising anchor was a delicate job that required coordination from foredeck to bridge.

For the OP, dropping the anchor by releasing the clutch is always possible, but retrieving by using up lots of battery power without the engine running isn’t best practice IMHO. On our own boat there’s a breaker to disable the windlass and it’s possible to raise the anchor either with or without engine assist and it’s just a matter of being sensible and doing the seamanlike thing.

 

[Neeves]

You're clearly a very experienced and knowledgeable boater with a lot of wisdom to contribute and share but your "my way or the highway" approach is very off putting.

Its a forum, the posts and advice are given b y everyone free of charge we should not need to edit our submissions to suit the sensitive. My apologies, for those who dislike my posts - just put me on 'ignore'. That's what its for.

If you want my advice in an edited version - pay for Practical Sailor.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

Sadly there are people on this forum who will swear blind that you are wrong. I’ve just delivered a 78 foot 80 tonne boat and the hydraulic windlass simply couldn’t pull the boat up to the anchor without engine assist. Raising anchor was a delicate job that required coordination from foredeck to bridge.

For the OP, dropping the anchor by releasing the clutch is always possible, but retrieving but using up lots of battery power without the engine running isn’t best practice IMHO. On our own boat there’s a breaker to disable the windlass and it’s possible to do either with or without engine assist and it’s just a matter of being sensible and doing the seamanlike thing.

In defence of Thinwater - few of us have experience of 80 ton vessels. Most of us have yachts that can easily be pulled toward the anchor by using the windlass or doing the same by hand.

I'm in a long line of people who would agree - use the windlass with the engine running - as you say its the seamanlike thing to support the windlass and battery with the engine.

Jonathan

 

[Irish Rover]

Its a forum, the posts and advice are given b y everyone free of charge we should not need to edit our submissions to suit the sensitive. My apologies, for those who dislike my posts - just put me on 'ignore'. That's what its for.

If you want my advice in an edited version - pay for Practical Sailor.

Jonathan

Generally, I agree, and that's why I was giving you the benefit of my advice about your style of posting .
As regards your post which I quoted, almost none of it was relevant to me as a motor boater so I just glossed over it. You are, however, totally wrong about operating a catamaran on a single engine. I've been doing it for years on my recently sold 34' catamaran. I've also done it on my recently acquired 43' catamaran although the fuel consumption benefit with the bigger engines is questionable - more experimenting needed.
By the way, I'm glad I afforded you an opportunity to promote your commercial activity .

 

[Neeves]

By the way, I'm glad I afforded you an opportunity to promote your commercial activity .

Printed and/or traditional media is fighting a rearguard action - and how it works out may be predictable - but maybe they will find a way to survive.

But traditional media offers editing, peer review and supports (financially) testing. They also pay authors.

If traditional media does not survive ..... what is going to replace it.

I have no qualms at promoting independent organisations supporting my meagre efforts. I question some who promote their own wallets.


Please be patient and give me another opportunity, YM and PBO also need our support - as without them this forum would not exist.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

That's what the clutch is for. Release, instant drop, gravity does the work. And/or loosen and drop under control.

Sadly does not work in reverse. Retrieving manually is a pain.

I'd rather not descent from the flybridge on a 45ft boat and run down the side deck to the bow in an emergency, when i can simply press a button from where i am.

 

[Neeves]

I'd rather not descent from the flybridge on a 45ft boat and run down the side deck to the bow in an emergency, when i can simply press a button from where i am.

And what does the owner do if the button does not work - not everyone can rely on a service provider as good as you.

Jonathan

 

[PaulRainbow]

And what does the owner do if the button does not work - not everyone can rely on a service provider as good as you.

Jonathan

Really ? You never cease to amaze.

 

[geem]

The solution is not one size fits all.
Our windlass runs from the engine batteries. 2x100Ah start batteries. The batteries are kept on float by vertue of a victron DC/DC charger, fed from the lithium house bank. There is no concern about them going flat. We often use the windlass rope drum to hoist our dinghy at night. No need to start the engine. It's a great solution and completely removes any concern about flat batteries

 

[Irish Rover]

And what does the owner do if the button does not work - not everyone can rely on a service provider as good as you.

Jonathan

He does it the difficult way the same as we do when when everyday things like cars and vacuum cleaners break down. However, I prefer to have the easy way as the default mode and the difficult way as the fall back.

 

[Neeves]

Really ? You never cease to amaze.

Its a compliment, you are good.

Maybe I should elaborate

It does not matter how good your installation might be - things go wrong, it is a yacht - its in an aggressive environment. You need a fall back - which might be the old fashioned way (and relying on the electronics might mean you don't know the old fashioned way).

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

He does it the difficult way the same as we do when when everyday things like cars and vacuum cleaners break down. However, I prefer to have the easy way as the default mode and the difficult way as the fall back.

Yes, its a yacht - subject to the rigours of vibration, corrosion and poor maintenance

Even the best electrician cannot cater for reality.

Jonathan

 

[PabloPicasso]

It's also a added safety feature, without the engine running you have a single point of failure. I.e. if the flimsy micro switch that you press to raise or lower the anchor fails, the anchor can operate even if you are not on the boat, I have seen this happen twice, one was lucky as the anchor payed out, the other not so lucky as it lifted the anchor. In the later case the owner was ashore but did see his boat drifting away and managed to catch it. I have fitted an override switch in the sail locker for the odd occasion I want to operate the anchor without engine, it's normally left that the engine has to be running though.

Well that sounds like a very sensible way of doing things. Admirably seaman like.

 

[Irish Rover]

Yes, its a yacht - subject to the rigours of vibration, corrosion and poor maintenance

Even the best electrician cannot cater for reality.

Jonathan

I really am lost to understand what you are trying to say - you appear to be saying it shouldn't be possible to do things the easy way because the easy way cannot be guaranteed never to break down or fail. If so I'm glad you weren't around when some daft lazy bugger came up with the idea of a round wheel.

 

[Neeves]

It's also a added safety feature, without the engine running you have a single point of failure. I.e. if the flimsy micro switch that you press to raise or lower the anchor fails, the anchor can operate even if you are not on the boat, I have seen this happen twice, one was lucky as the anchor payed out, the other not so lucky as it lifted the anchor. In the later case the owner was ashore but did see his boat drifting away and managed to catch it. I have fitted an override switch in the sail locker for the odd occasion I want to operate the anchor without engine, it's normally left that the engine has to be running though.

Yes - the flimsy switch.

You cannot make these things up.

A very brief summery

We were transiting down the Great Sandy Strait. We anchored off a small eco-resort. We were in the middle of dinner, lamb shanks and Australian Shiraz (we like to eat well).

A hammering on the hull 'where is Snow Bird? I left her here'. We had passed a yacht, cabin lights lit, anchor light on, anchor deployed - 1nm further out from the anchorage - but in deep water. Put 2 and 2 together - Snow Bird. Abandoned dinner - radar found yacht, motored owner to yacht.

Owner recovered anchor, motored back to anchorage - he went to bed (no comments, no slab of beer). In the morning he explained, briefly, that the windlass had engaged, part retrieving anchor. Owners can be 'odd'.

We continued our transit south,

The following morning the Marine Rescue was full of the previous night's events. The yacht had caught fire, owner rescued, now in hospital and yacht sank.

No reflection on anyone here.

Its a yacht, things go wrong - sometimes badly. Have a fall back, check, check and check again. We had a strop that secured the rode, the anchor could not be lifted or further deployed - we had no real answer to electrical fires. But the strop meant - no matter how inconvenient - we HAD to be at the windlass to retrieve or deploy. The windlass is immensely powerful (chops fingers off INXS members) - don't rely on a flimsy switch.

Jonathan

 

[Neeves]

I really am lost to understand what you are trying to say - you appear to be saying it shouldn't be possible to do things the easy way because the easy way cannot be guaranteed never to break down or fail. If so I'm glad you weren't around when some daft lazy bugger came up with the idea of a round wheel.

KLBH and I have first hand experience of the switch, the marine equivalent of the wheel.

Convenient yes, not totally reliable, unlike the wheel.

Jonathan

 

[Stemar]

I'm going to go with Neeves. On a cat, one engine is fine when you've got some way on, but from a standstill, you're going in a circle until you've got moving. Not a good idea in a crowded anchorage.

As for engine on/engine off when using the windlass, I totally get why a charter company might wire a boat so the engine must be running - batteries are expensive and charterers of, shall we say, variable skill and mechanical sympathy, but for a privately owned boat where the person pressing the button also buys the batteries, the flexibility not being tied to a particular course of action seems a far better idea.