Will the end of new petrol/diesel cars in 2030, affect boat propulsion?

[prv]

A while back I was talking to someone who had driven her Nissan Leaf some 1000km from Vancouver, to Calgary. People normally do this in a day; it took her five and it read like some tale out of the early 1900's

A Nissan Leaf is a shopping-trolley, though. It’s not meant for journeys like that.

Do the same trip in a Tesla or similar and, while I’m sure it’ll involve a bit more constraint on route and timing than with a petrol car, it wouldn’t be the major expedition you describe.

CGP Grey drove a Tesla from San Jose to Moab, Utah and back to Los Angeles, part of which was along “the Loneliest Road in America”. Watching his video there was certainly some range anxiety and sketchy recharging in remote RV parks (because in the absence of dedicated car chargers, hookups for RV air-con are a much better bet than weedy American domestic sockets for obtaining serious power). But he was driving huge distances across rural America and deliberately choosing a more off-track route rather than the one recommended by the car’s computer - and though it’s a while since I watched the video, I don’t recall him spending much time charging when he wanted to be driving.

You don’t often hear people shrieking in terror that power boats would be problematic if the engine dies as they have no sails

I don’t shriek in terror, but it is something that genuinely concerns me about a potential switch from sail to power .

(I’d be looking at backup systems and ways to make engines as reliable as possible, though, rather than trying to stick a mast on top of a motor yacht )

Pete

 

[prv]

It would have been useful to include some text to say what your point was, since it doesn't appear to be related to my post that you quoted?

Coopec appeared since you were last regularly around on the forum, Dave - you’ll find he regularly just googles stuff of tangential relevance to threads and either posts links to it or copies and pastes it into the forum.

Pete

 

[AngusMcDoon]

A Nissan Leaf is a shopping-trolley, though. It’s not meant for journeys like that.

Do the same trip in a Tesla or similar..

Even a shopping trolley Nisan Leaf is 4 times the cost of the cheapest petrol car on sale in the UK. A Tesla is 7 times the price. Even if prices halve the cost will still be too high for a large proportion of the population.

 

[BabySharkDooDooDooDooDoo]

Coopec appeared since you were last regularly around on the forum, Dave - you’ll find he regularly just googles stuff of tangential relevance to threads and either posts links to it or copies and pastes it into the forum.

Pete

Whatever happened to that chap fitting out a not previously launched Countess (or some such) that was meant to be launched a year ago, wasn't that supposed to have electric propulsion?

 

[lustyd]

Ah that makes sense, thanks Pete

A better paper might be this one, which documents the potential damage of Hydrogen leaking into the atmosphere while concluding that if only the UK uses H only for heating and only 1% loss through leaking occurs then there probably won't be too much of a problem. I note particularly the logo in the top left of the report as a potential reason for this sunny outlook. Of course, I could just as easily write a paper on how damaging deisel is while stating that just the UK using just boats would cause such little harm as to be negligable. We must never forget that scale is ALWAYS the problem with anything environmental. Face masks weren't a problem when it was only doctors and decorators using them, but look at the countryside now just 6 months later...
https://assets.publishing.service.g...760538/Hydrogen_atmospheric_impact_report.pdf

 

[coopec]

It would have been useful to include some text to say what your point was, since it doesn't appear to be related to my post that you quoted?

Why didn't you use the link?

You said
This, along with widespread use of Hydrogen could be devastating for the planet so have a good think before pushing too hard on it. With Hydrogen any gas leak will rise high in the atmosphere, potentially causing issues the way Helium does.

And the article I gave the link to says
increasing atmospheric hydrogen on stratospheric ozone. They suggested that the addition of hydrogen would increase stratospheric water vapor and cool the stratosphere, a process that would delay recovery of the ozone layer.

 

[flaming]

I asked this question a while back...
How much longer will sales of boats with internal combustion engines be allowed?

I do think there is an element of head in sands from some here. I find it difficult to imagine that politicians who have just banned ICE cars from sale would be somehow immune to the inevitable pressure from environmental groups to also ban ICE in new leisure boats.
Especially when a big Mobo can use as much fuel in an afternoon as your typical fiesta driver gets through in a year.

 

[coopec]

Coopec appeared since you were last regularly around on the forum, Dave - you’ll find he regularly just googles stuff of tangential relevance to threads and either posts links to it or copies and pastes it into the forum.

Pete

Never mind Pete: won't be long before they have a vaccine for it

 

[flaming]

Even a shopping trolley Nisan Leaf is 4 times the cost of the cheapest petrol car on sale in the UK. A Tesla is 7 times the price. Even if prices halve the cost will still be too high for a large proportion of the population.

The answer is already coming. Just as with cheap 3-5 year old cars now it's ex rental or hire stock.

Right now there's a very compelling argument forming for electric cars for those who buy most new cars now - people who buy them on PCP or lease cars rather than buying. We're just about to pull the trigger on a scheme to allow our staff to lease electric cars on a salary sacrifice scheme. So this means they can pay the lease out of their gross salary, as there is no BIK tax. The result of this is that you can have a renault Zoe for about £200 p/m off your takehome pay. And a fully loaded Tesla model 3 for about £500. And that's including all insurance, tax (none), MOT when applicable, tyres and maintenance. Only electricity and screen wash are not included.

We think the Zoe is going to be extremely popular with those of our staff who only really keep a second car in order to commute to work. If you use a tank of fuel a fortnight that's about £100/month. Given we'll be putting in charging points for our staff they are unlikely to pay anything over the lease cost. Even if they did that £100 per month would be about £10 when charged overnight on a tariff designed for EV users.
So if your car is costing you more than £1200 a year in depreciation, tax, maintenance, MOT and insurance you'll be better off on this scheme. And if not you could still drive a new car for really very little money.
Then for our more senior people, the sort who currently drive BMW/Audi on PCP, they are all very interested in the Tesla and Polestar offerings, which will be pretty similar in outlay for them.

This sort of scheme is popping up in a lot of businesses and will provide the pool of second hand cars in 5 or so years.

 

[lustyd]

Why didn't you use the link?

You said
This, along with widespread use of Hydrogen could be devastating for the planet so have a good think before pushing too hard on it. With Hydrogen any gas leak will rise high in the atmosphere, potentially causing issues the way Helium does.

And the article I gave the link to says
increasing atmospheric hydrogen on stratospheric ozone. They suggested that the addition of hydrogen would increase stratospheric water vapor and cool the stratosphere, a process that would delay recovery of the ozone layer.

I did use the link, and the doc seemed to predominantly be research into why increasing Hydrogen use would decrease problems from fossil fuels so without an explanation from you it seemed at first glance to be completely irrelevant. I'd have had to carefully read the whole thing to find that one sentence, which you could have easily quoted to explain your link so we could all have been a little bit smarter. Now you've done so your contribution is useful and welcome, so thanks. Hopefully in future you'll spend the extra 4-5 seconds to add enlightenment to the information so we can turn it into wisdom.

 

[coopec]

I did use the link, and the doc seemed to predominantly be research into why increasing Hydrogen use would decrease problems from fossil fuels so without an explanation from you it seemed at first glance to be completely irrelevant. I'd have had to carefully read the whole thing to find that one sentence, which you could have easily quoted to explain your link so we could all have been a little bit smarter. Now you've done so your contribution is useful and welcome, so thanks. Hopefully in future you'll spend the extra 4-5 seconds to add enlightenment to the information so we can turn it into wisdom.

The research they are doing backs up your statement regarding the damaging effects of hydrogen. Everyone seems to ignore that (serious) problem?

The heading of the research paper was:
Hydrogen Effects on Climate, Stratospheric Ozone, and Air Pollution

 

[JumbleDuck]

Posted on November 22, 2017 by Matt Wandel
Debunking Dr. Bossel’s Anti-Hydrogen Thesis


Debunking Dr. Bossel’s Anti-Hydrogen Thesis

Nice rant, but it's "debunking" a straw man.

In this article RMP will use common sense, simple examples, and data to dispel an argument that hydrogen production, storage, and distribution is not economical because it’s less efficient than storing energy in a battery.​

​

Also far too keen to attack the man rather than the arguments (ad-hominem) and relies on unwarranted assumptions (we can afford to throw away half the electricity we generate) and unproven technology (carbon capture and storage).​

 

[coopec]

Apparently Mercedes has dropped development of a hydrogen powered car

Daimler ends hydrogen car development because it's too costly. Daimler's Mercedes-Benz is killing its program to develop passenger cars powered by hydrogen fuel cells. ... In the end, the company conceded that building hydrogen cars was too costly, about double the expense of an equivalent battery-electric vehicle.Apr 22, 2020

 

[JumbleDuck]

If you've got the space, big tanks. Think gasholders. If you haven't got the space, liquify it. In your car, a tough cylinder. I can't see that it'd be significantly more dangerous than petrol because a leak will disperse quickly, not sit around waiting for an idiot with a cigarette

You really, really don't want to liquefy hydrogen if you can possibly avoid it. It by far the most dangerous of all the cryogenics gases. In my days of working with Very Cold Things, only one lab in the UK - Rutherford Appleton - still had LH2 facilities, which includes remote control and blast walls ...

Anyway, you can't liquefy the stuff at any temperature above -240C, so it has to be compressed gas, and at prodigiously high pressure. typically 500 bar, which is three times the pressure in a standard oxygen cylinder. Even then it is only 33 kg/m^3 which is 4.7 GJ/cubic metre which is roughly one-seventh as much as petrol (35 GJ/m^3). So basically, a ten gallon petrol tank needs replaced with a seventy gallon pressure vessel three time stronger than a welding cylinder.

If it does leak you have all the fun of a near invisible flame. Not as bad a petrol, I grant you, but if petrol was kept as tightly controlled as hydrogen has to be, it wouldn't be an issue either.

The thing with wind, solar and tidal power, which are the only really viable renewables - biomass takes up too much good land that's needed for food production - is that they produce power when they feel like it, not when we want it, and storage of electricity is, pace Tesla Power Wall, not at the point where we can store enough power for a winter evening peak in an anticyclone.

Absolutely. As a rough guide, total dependence on wind and solar is generally reckoned to need two weeks of storage, because that's how long we can go with cloudy windless days. Britain has, off teh top of my head, about 23 seconds' worth of storage and Dinorwig and few more seconds at Cruachan. Of course hydro power makes an important contribution and tidal, when we get it, will reduced the gaps, but overall you are absolutely right that the biggest challenge with reneable electricity is not making it but storing it With current technology I just can't see hydrogen as the answer.

 

[JumbleDuck]

This, along with widespread use of Hydrogen could be devastating for the planet so have a good think before pushing too hard on it. With Hydrogen any gas leak will rise high in the atmosphere, potentially causing issues the way Helium does.

In general I agree, but neither hydrogen nor helium is a long-term issue in the atmosphere because they are the only two gases light enough to rise to the top and then diffuse away into space. That's why we can't get helium from air distillation - it all escapes. There are suggestion that hydrogen might cause issues before it escapes, but it's all very speculative at the moment.

 

[coopec]

Anyway, you can't liquefy the stuff at any temperature above -240C, so it has to be compressed gas, and at prodigiously high pressure. typically 500 bar, which is three times the pressure in a standard oxygen cylinder. Even then it is only 33 kg/m^3 which is 4.7 GJ/cubic metre which is roughly one-seventh as much as petrol (35 GJ/m^3). So basically, a ten gallon petrol tank needs replaced with a seventy gallon pressure vessel three time stronger than a welding cylinder.

But they liquify natural gas at around -260C and could liquify hydrogen at - 253C. Why would there be a problem with that?

 

[lustyd]

JD better to not find out the hard way again surely? We absolutely can change our lifestyles to make this work if we decide to

 

[eddystone]

They're not, for me, so I regret having to reflect what I believe is increasingly the case...

...it was made apparent to me this autumn when a young boat-buying couple almost entirely new to yachting, were completely obtuse to the benefit (in terms of savings) of bilge-keelers and other designs that can live upright on cheap drying moorings, because they had no higher ambition (and saw no more desirable goal) than sailing from one fully-equipped marina to the next.

It may not be in keeping with conventional views of what's possible, advisable, preferable or most pleasurable, but I had to admit, their simple, near-complete ignorance showed straightforward wisdom. It definitely is agreeable, never to need wellies or a tender or to have to think about anchors, or worry how the wind may change in the night. Or whether there's enough to eat on board.

Working people's sailing is restricted by time more than money, so convenience is almost the only priority. I predict more and more marinas...with electrical hook-ups on every berth.

 

[JumbleDuck]

But they liquify natural gas at around -260C and could liquify hydrogen at - 253C. Why would there be a problem with that?

LNG is at -260F, which is -160C. Those extra hundred degrees are not easy. And you started with electricity, which can be easily transported hundreds or thousands of miles ...

 

[JumbleDuck]

JD better to not find out the hard way again surely? We absolutely can change our lifestyles to make this work if we decide to

I couldn't agree more. We should not be pretending that magic sticking plaster will allow us to continue as we are.