Will the end of new petrol/diesel cars in 2030, affect boat propulsion?

coopec said:
Supposing you wanted an electric off road vehicle. You could do away with the weight of a 6 cylinder diesel, a gearbox, tailshaft, front and rear axle (and diffs), fuel tank and fuel. Replace all that with a bank of L ion batteries and an electric motor at each wheel. What an enormous weight saving?
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Maybe worth noting that a VW e-Golf weighs half a tonne more than the petrol engined version.
 
It'll make your journey to the boat a bloody hassle if its more than a 250-300 mile round trip, unless you can charge up there. But imagine what marina charges will be like after they've had to add 200 heavy-duty charging points. Up 30-50% I'd guess, straightaway. It'd cost Millions.
And you're stuffed if your boat is on a mooring away from industrial facilities with charging points, or in for a very long stop on the drive home.
If you tow the boat you're stuffed as electric cars are all but useless for towing, even trailers are going to be a problem at times.
Thankfully proper cars and vans will still be on the roads for years - decades to come after 2030, they'll just be penalised ever more by a vindictive gumment and by then hopefully there will be a solution to the problem.
There won't be a change to diesel engines in boats, there can't be as nothng else is suitable, thank God. Imagine fishing boats with hhdrigen fuel cells - soaked in seawater, or hydrogen refills in every port. Pop into the Azores for a fillup...let alone places more remote.
Fear not for boats, that won't happen in the lifetime of anyone reading this, I'll wager.
 
Marinas already have that insfrastructure in place. My berth has both a 16A and 32A socket, and the carpark is also littered with them for the off season.
 
lustyd said:
Marinas already have that insfrastructure in place. My berth has both a 16A and 32A socket ...
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The big question is what supply all those 16A and 32A sockets have. A bit like contention in broadband connections - I suspect that if everybody started trying to draw even 16A at the same time the supply would give a little whimpering noise and fall over. Largs Maraina, for example, would require a 12 kA supply. Of course it's inconceivable that so many people would want full power at once, but I wonder how many would? Residents would be happy to trickle charge over a week, probably, but there would be lots of visitors popping in to recharge while having lunch.

None of this rules electric boats out but as with electric cars, the infrastructure changes needed will be considerable.
 
Another thought. Internal combustion is not a terribly clean way of burning fuel oil. The Schafbergban in Austria and the Brienz-Rothornbahn in Switzerland both use modern (1990s) high-tech oil-fired steam locomotives which, although less efficient than diesel, allow better emissions control. Maybe we'll see the return of steam to shipping - with modern materials and modern automation, boilers today are far less bother to operate than before.
 
looking at the number of boats that leave their berths I don't foresee a problem. 90% just use it as a holiday home or drinking platform anyway. My marina has 2x 128A feeds per pontoon so you're right they can't feed everyone at full whack all the time, but I very much doubt that would be necessary.
On a side note the reason I know that...it turns out their trips are extremely sensitive as my old boat managed to trip the marina without tripping the boat, berth socket, or pontoon. Took them ages to track down the issue! Turned out to be a 4 gang socket full of water which had condensed on the cold metal inside.
 
JumbleDuck said:
In tiny numbers, yes. I'd love to see the technology become practical, but at the moment it isn't. What's needed is a way of producing hydrogen much more efficient than electrolysis.
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Amen to that. They also produce Hydrogen by Fermentation and a couple of others are definitely in development.

Alternative Fuels Data Center: Hydrogen Production and Distribution

As for electric boats, I'll point out that solar panel are effective and the more modern ones have minimal difference on cloudy days. It may also be that the the charging stations become two way so any excess energy being produced on boats hooked up at the marina can be fed straight back to the grid.
 
coopec said:
That's an interesting comment but I'd like to home in on just one point regarding energy density.

Supposing you wanted an electric off road vehicle. You could do away with the weight of a 6 cylinder diesel, a gearbox, tailshaft, front and rear axle (and diffs), fuel tank and fuel. Replace all that with a bank of L ion batteries and an electric motor at each wheel. What an enormous weight saving?
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Would you care to check the maths on that one and report back?

Even if you took a very very generous estimate of saving half a ton on the power train, go calculate how many kWh of battery pack you get for 500kg.
Then compare with the weight of diesel for the same energy. Some of the numbers you need are in post #13.

Statements are easy, but need to work the maths/physics as well to get an objective view.

I look forward to seeing your calculations.
 
Moodysailor said:
The positive aspect is that the technology is perfectly viable and currently available if we change our expectations and adjust our requirements. As someone alluded to in an earlier thread, it's the convenience we have become used to. If we are prepared to forgoe some range, and equip our boats to use the natural resources to replenish charge, then it is already possible to run completely off electric for sailing yachts.
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There definitely are some electric powered sailing yachts, but again if you look at the maths their range is pretty much just in and out of the marina.
Again, take the Spirit 44e which is put forward as a leading edge 2020 launched boat. A drive system costing £50k, but a range of just 15-30 miles in a flat calm. Pushing into a Force 5 probably nearer 10 miles, if fully charged before departure.

More worryingly, at just 20hp, would it actually push you off a lee shore in a Force 8 at all?

Compare that to a typical 60hp motor in a similar sized yacht, and a diesel range of 300 miles or so.

So I agree that clean propulsion options are very viable for new boats today. But pretty much needs to be a diesel electric hybrid solution for seagoing yachts for foreseeable future. And at the moment costs are a lot higher than a conventional drive train (less marked difference if full blue-water spec, where conventional drive yacht will also have a separate diesel generator and hydro generator which the hybrid covers).
 
dunedin said:
There definitely are some electric powered sailing yachts, but again if you look at the maths their range is pretty much just in and out of the marina.
Again, take the Spirit 44e which is put forward as a leading edge 2020 launched boat. A drive system costing £50k, but a range of just 15-30 miles in a flat calm. Pushing into a Force 5 probably nearer 10 miles, if fully charged before departure.

More worryingly, at just 20hp, would it actually push you off a lee shore in a Force 8 at all.

Compare that to a typical 60hp motor in a similar sized yacht, and a diesel range of 300 miles or so.
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If I understand this write up below boat correctly then this is suggesting 4 knots can be sustained from the onboard solar panels.

ARCONA 380 Z ELECTRIC SAILBOAT
 
Little Grebe said:
If I understand this write up below boat correctly then this is suggesting 4 knots can be sustained from the onboard solar panels.

ARCONA 380 Z ELECTRIC SAILBOAT
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Mmmmmm. Again it’s the maths / physics that need to be examined, not the words.

So theoretical absolute best solar output of a pretty amazing 3kW. That is a pretty impressive solar output in any circumstances, so presumably would need to be motoring in exactly the right direction (to get the solar aligned) in a perfect summer day. That then gives you perhaps 3hp at the prop IF no losses in wiring resistance etc (sound likely?).
So if really really really lucky going at a course of 90 degrees to a tropical sun, in flat calm and no waves or tide, might eventually reach 3-4 knots (as you might manage towing with a dinghy and 3hp outboard).

Does that sound like your typical day when trying to get back to harbour against the headwind?

Tricky stuff trying to beat physics.

And how many 38 foot yachts are happy to have a 15kW/20hp engine ? What is the progress that might be made in a gale? (Though this latter aspect will be adddessed very quickly I expect, with 30-60kW electric saildrives on the market soon. Electric motors are easy to do).
 
dunedin said:
Mmmmmm. Again it’s the maths / physics that need to be examined, not the words.

So theoretical absolute best solar output of a pretty amazing 3kW. That is a pretty impressive solar output in any circumstances, so presumably would need to be motoring in exactly the right direction (to get the solar aligned) in a perfect summer day. That then gives you perhaps 3hp at the prop IF no losses in wiring resistance etc (sound likely?).
So if really really really lucky going at a course of 90 degrees to a tropical sun, in flat calm and no waves or tide, might eventually reach 3-4 knots (as you might manage towing with a dinghy and 3hp outboard).

Does that sound like your typical day when trying to get back to harbour against the headwind?

Tricky stuff trying to beat physics.

And how many 38 foot yachts are happy to have a 15kW/20hp engine ? What is the progress that might be made in a gale? (Though this latter aspect will be adddessed very quickly I expect, with 30-60kW electric saildrives on the market soon. Electric motors are easy to do).
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Standard fit would be 30hp - Arcona 385 - NEW MODEL - SE Yachts

My concern regarding range would be more centred on when there is too little rather than choosing to motor into a headwind . Say you are going from Portsmouth to Beaulieu (so not a massive trip any stretch of the imagination) and have four hours endurance when you depart. You use an hour of that leaving and heading up river but sail the rest of the way but the forecast wind the following day doesn't show up and having picked up a mooring overnight there hasn't been much opportunity to re-charge so things start to look a bit dicey
 
Little Grebe said:
Standard fit would be 30hp - Arcona 385 - NEW MODEL - SE Yachts

My concern regarding range would be more centred on when there is too little rather than choosing to motor into a headwind . Say you are going from Portsmouth to Beaulieu (so not a massive trip any stretch of the imagination) and have four hours endurance when you depart. You use an hour of that leaving and heading up river but sail the rest of the way but the forecast wind the following day doesn't show up and having picked up a mooring overnight there hasn't been much opportunity to re-charge so things start to look a bit dicey
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If you are just pooling around the Solent then electric will be fine today. Catching a tide round Portland or something may be a very different proposition. Let alone a cross channel return to get back to work on Monday.

For me range is about doing longer legs with confidence - eg Sweden to Scotland short handed, I don’t want a strong wind forecast as prefer smooth seas. Last time crossed in a high, and had to motor for first 24 hours in mirror calm. Ended up nipping in to Norway for more diesel as worried we would not make the 300 miles if this continued. Got diverted by the bright lights of Norway, missed our weather window and got pasted in a 30 knot headwind instead ;-)
 
Have a look at what GM are doing with their Ultium stackable battery technology. My understanding is the intent is that it can be scaled to suit the application. Will be available in 350 mile range. Can charge 100 miles in 10 mins. This is 2022. By 2030, battery costs will have plummeted and it will drive new applications from trucks to yachts etc.

2022 GMC HUMMER EV: Ultimate Capability, Revolutionary Performance
2022 GMC HUMMER EV Edition 1 first with new Ultium battery architecture; 24-module, dual stack, 350+ miles range
 
PCUK said:
No current electric car can tow over 750kg and then only with hugely reduced range. Furthermore the ban is only in the UK so a complete waste of time. Even with a zero carbon UK this would have absolutely no effect on world pollution.
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Tesla reports a towing capacity of more than 14,000 pounds for the tri-motor Cybertruck
 
pvb said:
Have you misunderstood the 2030 proposal? It's that new petrol/diesel cars can't be sold. There'll still be millions of them around, and their secondhand prices will probably rise, because electric cars are more expensive and impractical for the millions of people who don't have a private drive to park on.

As 2030 approaches, we'll probably be seeing difficulties with our electricity generating capacity, so I wouldn't be surprised if the deadline drifts a bit...
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But to what extent will a switch to electric road vehicles make diesel or petrol less available?
 
I suspect that electrical storage will continue to be an issue and even now this trend towards lithium based storage is creating a major demand for this metal. It is not a widely available metal and the politics & environmental impact of mining it could get very interesting. Tesla have recently purchased 10,000 acres of Nevada to initiate their own mining activity
 
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