Will the end of new petrol/diesel cars in 2030, affect boat propulsion?

[Greenheart]

This is the point most people seem to be missing...that from 2030 all vehicles must have the ability to drive in a zero-emissions mode...it's possible that manufacturers will add a token system just to meet the rules.

Without being much of a green crusader, I certainly hope the measure by which real-world vehicle emissions are gauged, and the letter of the rules that emerge, would prevent such cynical avoidance of the sound intentions behind the proposal.

As Peter Gibbs suggests - its all a bit of a nonsense for sailing boats, we fill up once each year when we buy about 150L. Much bigger issue for motor boats that are consuming 10L per mile.

I was thinking similarly. Given that currently, there's nothing to discourage spendthrifts from regarding three-tonne off-roaders as road transport for one person, and given that the intention of the 2030 proposal is to reduce the emissions that such vehicles produce by eventually eliminating their non-essential use, it's hard to see how gallon-per-mile motor-yachts will to be regarded as a quite different and justifiable case. Whatever contrary shrieks their owners may emit. ?

 

[AngusMcDoon]

What battery size (kWh) and electric range do you get for your £90k ?
I am sure you will be rushing to down-hull from 3 to 2 ?

I don't know the details other than the generator is a 11kW Fischer Pander. I'm considering losing a hull and getting a new Broadblue 346, but with conventional twin diesels, so I haven't enquired further about the hybrid system.

 

[Gixer]

One way to get the economy up and running again, convince people to spend 30k odd on a new car by saying your current car is bad.
Didn’t this happen a while ago with people being convinced that diesel was the way forward?
When is the scrapage scheme being announced?

 

[atol]

This is the point most people seem to be missing. Petrol and diesel cars are not going to be banned. Just that from 2030 all NEW vehicles must have the ability to drive in a zero-emissions mode. I'm not aware of any further details on this yet, so it's possible that manufacturers will add a token system just to meet the rules.

my yacht already has the ability to operate in zero emissions mode,happens every time i stop the engine and raise the sails

 

[Laminar Flow]

With the currently available energy density for electrical storage, a zero emissions mandate for pleasure craft, I suspect, might kibosh the aspirations for the performance sailing boat sector in itself. This, as far as their short term holiday cruising capability goes due to restricted range and a down grade in performance with the additional weight of the batteries.

I recently saw a promo by a Seattle company for their electric drive system. It could propel a 36 foot boat at 3 -3.5 kts for about 4hrs, at 5.5 kts for about 60 - 75 min. The interesting thing here is: the Pacific North West is a tidal area in which currents of 6, 8, 14, and up to 20 kts are common in the many passes and even in the relatively open waters of the Straight of Juan de Fuca and Georgia Straight, tidal streams of 3 kts are normal. The distances between charging stations can be far and the weather is not, generally speaking, conducive to solar charging.

I have no idea how MoBos would manage and there might be a considerable number of them for sale as floating holiday cottages in the not too distant future.


The marine sectors would benefit greatly from the development of hydrogen gas as a fuel, as would the automobile sector for that matter.

 

[Greenheart]

...the Pacific North West is a tidal area in which currents of 6, 8, 14, and up to 20 kts are common in the many passes...

...the marine sectors would benefit greatly from the development of hydrogen gas as a fuel, as would the automobile sector for that matter.

I daresay with those tides, it's pretty daft for even a planing powerboat not to anchor or pull in and wait for a fair direction of flow.

Hydrogen, I wondered about. It seems to be plentiful and energy-dense enough - is it also clean enough to pass the carbon test?

 

[NotBirdseye]

I'd wager that Leisure craft won't be far behind.... new ones that is. Particularly for sailboats.

 

[eddystone]

If sailing yachts could be assured of quickly, fully recharging their propulsion batteries at each marina-berth they visit, arrival and departure from the marinas (and reaching the point of hoisting sail) might be possible without briefly starting the diesel. Which wouldn't hurt the diesel either.

This is probably what most people involved with policy development think "yachting" is like, if they think about it at all which is why it's probably not helpful for "yachties" to perpetuate the narrative that yachting and marinas are mutually interdependent.

 

[[70521]]

Would recognition of the option to use a hybrid set-up, be acknowledgement of the proposal's potential application to yachts as well as road vehicles?

I have a sailboat, I use about 60 litres of diesel a year to move the boat in and out of the marina, where sails are forbidden, and some small boat movements in the confines of my home and other harbours. That's about two weeks worth of diesel for the car. With my old engineering hat on the cost benefit analysis of setting up a hybrid for the boat would come to the conclusion, it's a complete waste of time.

However, if I had a motor boat that measured its use in litres per mile then that is a totally different conclusion.

 

[laika]

Any legislation will apply at worst to new vessels, so the PBO readership will have a while to go before they need to worry
As long as an electric motor can get you in and out of a marina, the scuttlebutt readers can't complain: Who admits to motoring?
Given central london is an ultra low emissions zone right now yet the riverboats pump out obscene amounts of pollutants I suspect the realists in the motorboat forum won't be overly stressing either.

Personally I'd be happy with 2 hour's worth of motoring which could be slowly recharged by a turbine. And hopefully battery technology will improve a lot in 10 years. Bring it on...

 

[Greenheart]

it's probably not helpful for "yachties" to perpetuate the narrative that yachting and marinas are mutually interdependent.

They're not, for me, so I regret having to reflect what I believe is increasingly the case...

...it was made apparent to me this autumn when a young boat-buying couple almost entirely new to yachting, were completely obtuse to the benefit (in terms of savings) of bilge-keelers and other designs that can live upright on cheap drying moorings, because they had no higher ambition (and saw no more desirable goal) than sailing from one fully-equipped marina to the next.

It may not be in keeping with conventional views of what's possible, advisable, preferable or most pleasurable, but I had to admit, their simple, near-complete ignorance showed straightforward wisdom. It definitely is agreeable, never to need wellies or a tender or to have to think about anchors, or worry how the wind may change in the night. Or whether there's enough to eat on board.

Working people's sailing is restricted by time more than money, so convenience is almost the only priority. I predict more and more marinas...with electrical hook-ups on every berth.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Hydrogen, I wondered about. It seems to be plentiful and energy-dense enough - is it also clean enough to pass the carbon test?

The only sensible way to make it is by reforming methane. Oops, hydrocarbon. Electrolysis is economic lunacy: the round trip through electrolysis and throws away half the electricity you has to start off with ... and that's without considering the problems and costs of storage.

The only place it has every made sense was Orkney, which had too small a grid interconnect for their renewable capacity, so their didn't care about throwing lots away. They aither have or are about to have a much bigger interconnect, so even their hydrogen is a dead duck.

 

[NotBirdseye]

The only sensible way to make it is by reforming methane. Oops, hydrocarbon. Electrolysis is economic lunacy: the round trip through electrolysis and throws away half the electricity you has to start off with ... and that's without considering the problems and costs of storage.

The only place it has every made sense was Orkney, which had too small a grid interconnect for their renewable capacity, so their didn't care about throwing lots away. They aither have or are about to have a much bigger interconnect, so even their hydrogen is a dead duck.

Storage costs of hydrogen are not that much after the initial expense... that's one of the advantages of Hydrogen vs Battery. While Electrolysis may be wasteful somewhat, when working through renewable supplies, it doesn't matter so much. This is typically why Electrolysis is done when the grid has too much energy, so instead of wasting the lot, we only waste half.

I'd still sooner have a hydrogen fuelled car than an electric battery car... just for sheer convenience even if it does convert hydrogen to electricity rather than actually using hydrogen directly. I may have to make a run 20 miles out of my way once a week but that takes about an hour round trip (ish) and I can be refilled in a matter of minutes. Rather than minimum 12hrs at home (small batteries) or half an hour with a superfast charge (tesla) although more often a fast charge is still a few hours.

 

[NotBirdseye]

Hydrogen, I wondered about. It seems to be plentiful and energy-dense enough - is it also clean enough to pass the carbon test?

Yes. May not always be the cheapest solution mind you.

 

[Greenheart]

I was half-remembering what I'd heard...that hydrogen is plentiful in the universe...not necessarily at a convenient spot for filling up.

 

[Laminar Flow]

Storage costs of hydrogen are not that much after the initial expense... that's one of the advantages of Hydrogen vs Battery. While Electrolysis may be wasteful somewhat, when working through renewable supplies, it doesn't matter so much. This is typically why Electrolysis is done when the grid has too much energy, so instead of wasting the lot, we only waste half.

I'd still sooner have a hydrogen fuelled car than an electric battery car... just for sheer convenience even if it does convert hydrogen to electricity rather than actually using hydrogen directly. I may have to make a run 20 miles out of my way once a week but that takes about an hour round trip (ish) and I can be refilled in a matter of minutes. Rather than minimum 12hrs at home (small batteries) or half an hour with a superfast charge (tesla) although more often a fast charge is still a few hours.

Near where my brother lives, the hills are festooned with wind generators and a lot of the time they are standing still due to overcapacity. This idle capacity could easily be used for the generation of hydrogen by electrolysis, a byproduct as it were.

A while back I was talking to someone who had driven her Nissan Leaf some 1000km from Vancouver, to Calgary. People normally do this in a day; it took her five and it read like some tale out of the early 1900's, of someone making the trip in a Model T; searching for charging stations, every 150km or less, then waiting for hours for the thing to charge. About the angry trucks, glued to her back bumper, honking, as she crawled up the mountain passes. We are in for some rude awakening, on personal mobility, soon.

 

[lustyd]

I always like the arguments against electric yachts. They always seem based on the assertion that diesel is a good alternative to seamanship and planning, and almost never acknowledge the several tons of dead weight yachts already carry in the keel. We adapted once to create power boats and I’m sure we’ll adapt again for electric. You don’t often hear people shrieking in terror that power boats would be problematic if the engine dies as they have no sails, but I assure you there was a long period where the luddites of the day would have done so in the forums of the day (pub most likely!).
Electric yachts are out there now and working fine for those who sail them. They will improve, along with sailing skills to the point most will use them without issue.

 

[coopec]

A few people have mentioned hydrogen and I think that's the way it will go. There is enormous interest in Australia developing a hydrogen export industry.


Australia backs desert project to export green hydrogen to Asia
www.ft.com › content

Oct 22, 2020 — Australia backs desert project to export green hydrogen to Asia. Canberra shifts focus from fossil fuels to supporting world's biggest solar and wind farm.
Hydrogen heating up Australia's exports ambitions: Taylor
www.smh.com.au › Politics › Federal › Hydrogen

4 days ago — Australia has signed agreements with Japan, Korea, Germany and Singapore to investigate hydrogen supply chains to provide those countries with clean fuel, and the Asian Renewable Energy Hub is developing plans for a whopping 26 gigawatt green hydrogen export project in the Pilbara.
South Australia on the front foot with $240 million green ...
www.pv-magazine-australia.com › 2020/11/06 › south-...

Nov 6, 2020 — The South Australian government has followed up the launch of its Hydrogen Export Prospectus last week with a straight drive on the front foot, $37 million in ...

Why Hydrogen Cars Will Be Tesla’s Biggest Threat

Hydrogen cars don't burn the fuel.

Hydrogen cars are not far away from Australian showrooms
www.whichcar.com.au › car-advice › the-hydrogen-car...

May 21, 2020 — How do hydrogen cars work? Essentially, a hydrogen fuel-cell car is an electric vehicle but its key difference compared with any EV currently on

 

[Greenheart]

My work sometimes involves big (very big) construction projects. I've noticed that a part of the commitment to low noise and emissions which the developers usually propose as mitigation, is the use of electric machinery, be it battery-powered or corded, wherever possible.

Granted it very often isn't possible, but considering how much better cordless power-tools are today than ten or 15 years ago, perhaps the small diesel plant engines on which yacht motors are based, may also become common in electric form, and notwithstanding the overarching battery issues, similar units may be developed for auxiliaries.

As a small market, alternative solutions for auxiliaries must have been neglected by industry, but as a sideline from wider applications developed on a massive scale, I can imagine practical solutions appearing at reasonable cost.

 

[crewman]

My understanding is that this ruling affects cars only. HGV's will continue to use diesel. The refineries/importers will be able to continue to supply diesel for some years, but demand for petrol will drop and eventually stop rather like the demand for leaded petrol some years ago. HGV's are more likely to go down the hydrogen fuel cell route rather than batteries, so I suspect we will see fuel cell boats. Could be other advantages, with an onboard source of substantial electric power electric cookers become viable eliminating LPG and powering high power devices such as anchor windlasses and bowthrusters is easier as can use high voltages to reduce current flows and thus cable sizes.