Why is the minimum age for Marine Radio Short Range Certificate SRC 16 years?

[Mark-1]

Well you would be intending to use it in an emergency so you have the intent to use it and you have it because you believe you might need to use it. I think this is the relevant part of the legislation Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006

If there happened to be a radio near you and it was an emergency and you used it it seems like everyone promises not to prosecute you rather than you have a right to do it.

I *reckon* the 'intent' requirement isn't met if your intent was predicated on there being an emergency situation, but who knows, I doubt there's been a prosecution.

100pc agree re safety from prosecution in practice, so this is purely a theoretical discussion. Thanks for the link to the actual rules.

 

[Adios]

I *reckon* the 'intent' requirement isn't met if your intent was predicated on there being an emergency situation, but who knows, I doubt there's been a prosecution.

No the clue is in the title of that provision "36. Keeping available for unauthorised use" It is crystal clear and Ofcom reiterate it in plain English to make it even clearer that keeping it for emergency use isn't allowed. People must have used some grey area a lot in the past so they legislated specifically for it.

How heavily they prosecute is another matter though for which we could do with hearing stories of people caught. The £5000 and 6 months maximum is a standard tariff for lots of things that are almost never prosecuted eg company law contraventions. Its not much of an indication that they will go straight to that especially for a no-nuisance or harm causing contravention in the name of safety because the legislation made contravention the only way to achieve the safety. They mention confiscation of equipment as well so it could be that is the first line of punishment.

 

[prv]

How heavily they prosecute is another matter though for which we could do with hearing stories of people caught.

I‘ve never heard of anyone being prosecuted for using a marine VHF without a license or certificate of competence.

Pete

 

[Mark-1]

No the clue is in the title of that provision "36. Keeping available for unauthorised use" It is crystal clear and Ofcom reiterate it in plain English to make it even clearer that keeping it for emergency use isn't allowed. People must have used some grey area a lot in the past so they legislated specifically for it.

How heavily they prosecute is another matter though for which we could do with hearing stories of people caught. The £5000 and 6 months maximum is a standard tariff for lots of things that are almost never prosecuted eg company law contraventions. Its not much of an indication that they will go straight to that especially for a no-nuisance or harm causing contravention in the name of safety because the legislation made contravention the only way to achieve the safety. They mention confiscation of equipment as well so it could be that is the first line of punishment.

I could be wrong, but I still think an emergency call by an unlicensed user isn't an unauthorised use, so I reckon the rules as written don't prohibit having a radio on the off chance of an emergency.

As for prosecutions, I will be amazed if anyone can find a case in the UK of a prosecution for an unlicensed person having a VHF on board unused, except in an emergency. We don't regularly hear of prosecutions even for serious abuse of 16 by unlicensed users in the UK. (I don't remember any myself.) The CG can't even triangulate a position any more, so when Kids do start transmitting they rarely seem to get caught. (It happened a few years back in the Solent, same kids voices regularly transmitting on 16 for days on end. Never caught them.)

Still an interesting theoretical question - why pick 16yo? 18, yes. No age restriction, yes. But 16? Weird. I suspect the speculation above has it right but even so, I'd be interested to know.

 

[Adios]

I‘ve never heard of anyone being prosecuted for using a marine VHF without a license or certificate of competence.

Pete

have you heard of anyone being caught and then not prosecuted or just no one being caught? Presumably the latter. Same here! Would be great to hear from or about someone who got caught and what happened next

 

[Adios]

I could be wrong, but I still think an emergency call by an unlicensed user isn't an unauthorised use, so I reckon the rules as written don't prohibit having a radio on the off chance of an emergency.

Ofcoms interpretation of the legislation is what would count in court.

We don't regularly hear of prosecutions even for serious abuse of 16 by unlicensed users in the UK. (I don't remember any myself.) The CG can't even triangulate a position any more, so when Kids do start transmitting they rarely seem to get caught. (It happened a few years back in the Solent, same kids voices regularly transmitting on 16 for days on end. Never caught them.)

How about this "Castletown Isle of Man Coastguard rigged their **mobile** radio direction finding equipment on Douglas Head and determined a radio bearing for the yacht." Yacht rescue prompts reminder to carry VHF radio at sea - Practical Boat Owner

But then they are hardly going to scramble and rush around with that trying to find a proficient radio operator because they sound a bit young...

More likely to be some jobsworth harbour employee reporting you or a bad luck encounter with someone from Ofcom who sails but doesn't like sailors. lol no its hard to imagine how anyone using it properly would get caught really. But its a shame to have to sneakily use something that should be basic equipment.

 

[Sandy]

The only time Ofcom or anyone else are likely to take any notice of who’s using a handheld VHF is if someone is if the person using it is either say disrupting port operations by using the wrong channel or using the radio so as to be a ruddy nuisance. I agree that the official answer is that each and every radio should be licensed, each user should hold a certificate and that there’s an age limit. How often that’ll be enforced is moot. And given that like most things radio it’s down to the ITU rules don’t hold your breath about changes, no matter how sensible.

Oh I don't know about enforcement, but one dark night in a violent storm a member of the mountain rescue team I was a member of described the weather with a few choice anglo saxon words. We could just catch what he was saying over the net, but six weeks later came a carefully worded letter from the Home Office reminding us that we were using their frequencies and that "strong language" no matter what the weather was doing was not permitted!

 

[Mark-1]

Ofcoms interpretation of the legislation is what would count in court.



How about this "Castletown Isle of Man Coastguard rigged their **mobile** radio direction finding equipment on Douglas Head and determined a radio bearing for the yacht." Yacht rescue prompts reminder to carry VHF radio at sea - Practical Boat Owner

But then they are hardly going to scramble and rush around with that trying to find a proficient radio operator because they sound a bit young...

More likely to be some jobsworth reporting you or a bad luck encounter with someone from Ofcom who sails but doesn't like sailers. lol no its hard to imagine how anyone using it properly would get caught really. But its a shame to have to sneakily use something that should be basic equipment.

I thought the CG no longer had RDF gear. Good news if they have IMHO.

 

[fien397]

have you heard of anyone being caught and then not prosecuted or just no one being caught? Presumably the latter. Same here! Would be great to hear from or about someone who got caught and what happened next

I very much doubt your going to find anyone who's been prosecuted, unless there was some malicious usage.
People use vhf all the time for distress without a licence, and they are quite often pretty honest about it. Unless I've missed something, you don't say what age the kids are?
If they are mature enough to hold a meaningful coversation on the phone, there's really no issue with them having vhf for distress use, provided you've given them sufficient basic training.
You mention coaching... this shouldn't be done on vhf anyway.

 

[prv]

I thought the CG no longer had RDF gear. Good news if they have IMHO.

The Manx Coastguard is separate from the UK one.

The MCA decided years ago to stop maintaining the RDF equipment at its antenna sites, but to allow it to continue to be used as long as it kept working. However, the subsequent big reorganisation and consolidation that gave us the call-centre at Fareham meant a new VHF infrastructure (even if some of the kit out at the remote sites was reused) and I assume that any remaining DF equipment wasn’t incorporated into that. So from that point on, no more Coastguard DF, only RNLI.

I’ve never heard any mention of portable DF kit with the UK Coastguard volunteer teams, like the Isle of Man ones apparently have.

Pete

 

[prv]

People use vhf all the time for distress without a licence, and they are quite often pretty honest about it.

I’m pretty sure some people use it for routine traffic without a CoC too. Unless they sounded utterly clueless, how would you know?

Some other people sound fairly inept and probably do have a station license and CoC ?

To answer the OP’s question - I haven’t heard of any enforcement action at all against anyone for not having an operator’s certificate. I vaguely recall a couple of forum anecdotes from decades ago of Ofcom (or the Post Office?) chasing people up for expired station licenses, back when you had to pay for them, renew annually, and display it in a window like a tax disk. I get the impression that there used to be more of a “field organisation” to enforce this stuff, but that it’s been largely disbanded. I’d be curious about how long ago Sandy’s letter about rude words for weather took place.

Pete

 

[Mark-1]

I’m pretty sure some people use it for routine traffic without a CoC too.

I'm sure there are thousands of people who do that. Plus the vast number of people who never 'upgraded' their license for DSC and are therefore unlicensed on their current kit.

Personally, I don't blame them, my own use of voice protocols on VHF is abysmal and I'm not alone which isn't a ringing endorsement of the license!

 

[Adios]

You mention coaching... this shouldn't be done on vhf anyway.

Are you imagining me giving a constant flow of instruction like the guy with the loud hailer shouting at some rowers? Not what I had in mind. If you're allowed to ask "what time are we going to the pub?" by VHF then I think I'm allowed to give a few brief instructions/reminders for someone getting things wrong and about to come acropper in a boat. Apart from a few areas in peak season the inter-ship channels are not very much used, are not reserved for emergencies and low watt transmissions don't go far.

 

[Boathook]

Are you imagining me giving a constant flow of instruction like the guy with the loud hailer shouting at some rowers? Not what I had in mind. If you're allowed to ask "what time are we going to the pub?" by VHF then I think I'm allowed to give a few brief instructions/reminders for someone getting things wrong and about to come acropper in a boat. Apart from a few areas in peak season the inter-ship channels are not very much used, are not reserved for emergencies and low watt transmissions don't go far.

That rather assumes that they have their radio on unless you responding to something they said.

 

[Adios]

That rather assumes that they have their radio on unless you responding to something they said.

scenario is 2 dinghys or a yacht and a dinghy, kids in a dinghy monitoring an agreed channel. Seems even that's illegal let alone them being able to transmit on the radio, and I couldn't find any chatter about this problem

 

[scottie]

Leaving vhf transmitting especially with radio used to be a major problem due to sticking transmit button or incorrect placement of hand set
In certain areas on the Clyde going near the local fishermen’s channel was definitely verboten

 

[fien397]

Are you imagining me giving a constant flow of instruction like the guy with the loud hailer shouting at some rowers? Not what I had in mind. If you're allowed to ask "what time are we going to the pub?" by VHF then I think I'm allowed to give a few brief instructions/reminders for someone getting things wrong and about to come acropper in a boat. Apart from a few areas in peak season the inter-ship channels are not very much used, are not reserved for emergencies and low watt transmissions don't go far.

Well yes that's what I was imagining, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not a mind reader

To be honest I don't know why you're so hung up on the idea of kids having vhf's in dinghys anyway.

Most coaching will need to be done at close quarters, as you obviously can't teach at 500 yards. For distress purposes I'm guessing most clubs will have someone ashore/afloat as race officer or similar for training, plus a sensible safety boat / dinghy ratio.

That said, almost nobody is going to care if they are used in a sensible manner so crack on and give them radios if you really want to. Personally, id go down the route of waterproof non VHF radios, as already mentioned. The kids will find that much more fun anyway.

If you do go down the VHF route and have any issues, remove the privilege immediately and re-assess in a few years when they are older.

 

[Alicatt]

Nothing to stop your little darlings using walkie- talkies up in the 300-1000MHz band - they won't need licences

In the middle of that you have the 70cm amateur band where you do need a licence, it's just below the 446PMR band

 

[Adios]

Well yes that's what I was imagining, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not a mind reader

I expected better ?

Personally, id go down the route of waterproof non VHF radios, as already mentioned. The kids will find that much more fun anyway.

I've ordered a pair of Motorola T92 H20 to see if they are any better than the ones I tried a few years back. If not i'll put them back on ebay. That will do for most scenarios maybe and get them used to using a radio but I think it will teach bad habits knowing they can mess about on them. I'd much rather they have the proper thing and are trained in its proper use from day one.

 

[Adios]

I expected better ?

Hold on not the angry face! It was a joke ⬆ I didn't expect mind reading powers!