Why is the minimum age for Marine Radio Short Range Certificate SRC 16 years?

[Adios]

IIRC the regulations also state that anyone can use the VHF for a genuine emergency. regardless of certificates held ( or not)

undoubtedly thats true. Couple of things occur to me though. It would be better if they were in the habit of using it rather than hoping they can use under stress the thing they have until then been told they are not allowed to use. Could negate that to some extent by encouraging them to be the one to use it when on the boat with them. But still comes back to why not just train them and allow them to use it on a regular basis.

The other thing is what constitutes an emergency. Life or death only? Or avoiding getting into a situation which would be life or death. Prevention is better than needing to be rescued. Having a good means of communication to discus navigation, changing conditions, sail options etc. Also they would have to have it on them (are they allowed to be in charge of one?) and will then have to be discouraged from using it *unless they are sure its an emergency*. So we don't trust them to use a radio but we rely on them to define what is an emergency in good time to prevent a disaster. "Don't tells us until you're in the water!"

Am I really alone in this??

 

[prv]

Am I really alone in this??

I think you may be alone in caring so much about the letter of the regulations. If I had a teenager who was going to be sailing independently enough that carrying a VHF was sensible, I'd make sure they knew how to use it properly (essentially, run my own little SRC course at home) and then crack on. Maybe buy them a formal course place as a 16th birthday present when the time comes.

That said, PMR446 radios for fleet chatter (if something more than just shouting between boats is even needed) and a mobile phone in a waterproof case will cover most of the use-case of a VHF and more besides. At least in my part of the world, there's nowhere you'd sail a dinghy that doesn't have good phone signal.

Pete

 

[Adios]

I think you may be alone in caring so much about the letter of the regulations. If I had a teenager who was going to be sailing independently enough that carrying a VHF was sensible, I'd make sure they knew how to use it properly (essentially, run my own little SRC course at home) and then crack on. Maybe buy them a formal course place as a 16th birthday present when the time comes.

They're far from ready to independently sail but I was hoping to include VHF in their early progress towards that. I'm genuinely unsure if the letter of the law forbids it when I'm on a nearby boat. It might be one of those things that if you ask it will have to be a "no" but if done quietly no one will care or notice or even think its a bad idea. Who knew 16 was a minimum age? Who would think twice about seeing a handheld VHS in a boats kit?

Its a shame to teach kids that breaking the law is sometimes a sensible thing though, but perhaps that is a valuable lesson for life what with the law being an ass as this law seems to prove.

 

[prv]

I'm genuinely unsure if the letter of the law forbids it when I'm on a nearby boat.

I think it does - or more accurately, doesn't foresee it. When the International Telecommunications Union was making the rules, I'm sure 95% of what they had in mind revolved around commercial shipping, with a 5% hat-tip to "oh yeah, I guess there's some WAFIs who use radios too". Teenagers in dinghies will not have featured in their thinking in the slightest.

if done quietly no one will care or notice or even think its a bad idea.

Exactly so.

Pete

 

[penberth3]

.......Children can drive tractors from 13 Children and public safety - Agriculture - HSE......

A poor example of what is legal and/or sensible. That's a historical hang-over and I'm sure the HSE aren't happy about it. I can imagine a big fuss from the industry if they tried to change it.

 

[Adios]

I just found Ofcom specifically forbid carrying a VHF without a licence in case it is needed for an emergency.

"It is also an offence for a person to have ship radio equipment in their possession or under their control, with the intention of using it without a licence. A Ship Radio Licence or Ship Portable Radio Licence is therefore required even if the radio equipment is not in constant use or if it is intended for use only for distress purposes." https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/ass...dio-Licences-Guidance-notes-for-licensing.pdf

I can see why they would make it like that to avoid lots of people installing or carrying one without a licence to avoid the cost and saying they weren't intending to use it. This way people are forced to do it properly if they do it at all. Shame that it impinges on those under 16s who would like to do it properly but can't. That certainly makes it harder to expect to get away with use under the radar.

I still wonder if giving the radio to someone to use while in your tender is allowed. That would cover dinghy plus accompanying yacht scenarios very precisely and also make a good case for direct supervision to not necessarily need to be on the same piece of flotsam.

 

[Adios]

A poor example of what is legal and/or sensible. That's a historical hang-over and I'm sure the HSE aren't happy about it. I can imagine a big fuss from the industry if they tried to change it.

If history hasn't shown it to be a bad idea by now why assume it is a bad idea? Is 13 too young to use machinary or control a vehicle?

"Lewis Hamilton began his driving career when he was eight years old. He won the British Kart Championship when he was 10. Three years later Hamilton was signed to the McLaren and Mercedes-Benz Young Driver Support Programme, where he was given the support and backing he needed to train and develop his skills. From 1998 to 2000 he won European and world karting championships, and at age 15 he became the youngest-ever driver to be ranked number one in the sport." Lewis Hamilton | Biography, Titles, & Facts

And still he would have been too young, too incompetent, too clumsy, too immature to control a VHF radio.

 

[penberth3]

If history hasn't shown it to be a bad idea by now why assume it is a bad idea? Is 13 too young to use machinary.....

13 is definitely too young for today's agricultural machinery. It doesn't happen in any other industry.

Back to radios. I think the thread's agreed it's OK for a child to use VHF in an emergency.

 

[Adios]

13 is definitely too young for today's agricultural machinery. It doesn't happen in any other industry.

I am in favour of allowing the owner of the machinery to be the judge of when someone is competent to control it which is what the law does in this case. I doubt many farmers will allow somoene who can't do it to drive it just because they are now 13. Why the law can't allow a similar age kid to control a radio when the radios owner believes they are fit is the bit I'm struggling with.

Back to radios. I think the thread's agreed it's OK for a child to use VHF in an emergency.

That was never in doubt and isn't the point in question, though I now find they can't even carry one in case of emergency. Question is more why can't they use it to avoid emergencies as a basic part of seamanship until they are 16? I was mostly wondering why its not something I could find others talking about. I'm surprised at the lack of support for the issue but its convinced me not to waste my time trying to campaign for a common sense change of the law so it was useful in that respect.

 

[Mark-1]

Minimum age for the RYA powerboat course is 12. Kids of all ages sail dinghies at sea. But not until they are 16 can they use the communication equipment on a boat. In the case i'm thinking of can't use a hand held VHF to communicate between dinghies cruising in company. Am I missing something here? I can't see that anyone ever talked about it on the forum or anywhere online. Seems unlikely that no one else came across this problem.

I assume its an Ofcom decision, probably blanket age for any radio license, but the RYA clearly have a relationship with Ofcom and this is a safety issue, have they tried to change this? I realise children could carry one for an emergency but the idea is to have good communication to avoid an emergency and coaching. I wonder if its even legal for them to have one and monitor it? Clearly unlikely to be caught doing that but can't see why this is even an issue.

Anyone ever tried to get to the bottom of this?

I'd love to know why.

My 4yo uses the radio supervised and my 9yo uses the radio unsupervised. There is no way they would remember how to use the radio in an emergency if they didn't regularly use it in day-to-day situations. Both below the age of criminal responsibility.

 

[newtothis]

If history hasn't shown it to be a bad idea by now why assume it is a bad idea? Is 13 too young to use machinary or control a vehicle?

"Lewis Hamilton began his driving career when he was eight years old. He won the British Kart Championship when he was 10. Three years later Hamilton was signed to the McLaren and Mercedes-Benz Young Driver Support Programme, where he was given the support and backing he needed to train and develop his skills. From 1998 to 2000 he won European and world karting championships, and at age 15 he became the youngest-ever driver to be ranked number one in the sport." Lewis Hamilton | Biography, Titles, & Facts

And still he would have been too young, too incompetent, too clumsy, too immature to control a VHF radio.

In rural NZ in the 70s I started driving tractors on my grandfather's knee at five. By seven or eight was solo. Then the mini-moke around the farm. By 12 I was being sent to the village to pick up chicken feed in the small Ford utility. Got my full driving licence at 15. Thems were the days.

 

[Mark-1]

I have some sympathy with the OP’s point - but in practice a load of PMR446 walkie-talkies is probably a better choice for a fleet of kids’ dinghies. No licenses needed, and they can chat about anything they like without disturbing anyone else,
Pete

I just found Ofcom specifically forbid carrying a VHF without a licence in case it is needed for an emergency.

"It is also an offence for a person to have ship radio equipment in their possession or under their control, with the intention of using it without a licence. A Ship Radio Licence or Ship Portable Radio Licence is therefore required even if the radio equipment is not in constant use or if it is intended for use only for distress purposes." https://www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/ass...dio-Licences-Guidance-notes-for-licensing.pdf

I *think* that paraphrase might be wrong/misleading because it's not consistent with itself.

It starts off saying it's illegal to to have a radio with intent to use it without license, then it days it's illegal to have one "just in case" for emergence purposes which isn't intent to use it, IMHO.

Typically people interpret the rules as "You can have a fitted radio without a licence for emergency use only" and I'd be amazed if that wasn't the case .

Regarding PMR446 radios. We have a load of these we use for group cycle rides/walks/camping with friends and their kids. They would be ideal for family kayaking/beach use but I bought cheap ones and it never occurred to me to buy IPx7 ones. I just googled and it turns out you can buy IPx7 ones that float like a handheld VHF and they're not too pricey. Too late for me - our existing walkie talkies will outlive our need for them - but useful to know. Kicking myself, TBH. ?

 

[PetiteFleur]

When we used to take our two grandchildren with us on our summer cruise, from age 9, we taught them the phonetic alphabet(they were v good!) and let them use the vhf under supervision, with a card with emergency procedures. Never used in anger but they still know the phonetic alphabet as we often test them when we see them, but they are in their 20's so have other interests.

 

[penberth3]

I *think* that paraphrase might be wrong/misleading because it's not consistent with itself.

It starts off saying it's illegal to to have a radio with intent to use it, then it days it's illegal to have one "just in case" for emergence purposes which isn't intent to use it, IMHO.

Typically people interpret the rules as "You can have a fitted radio without a licence for emergency use only" and I'd be amazed if that wasn't the case .

Regarding PMR446 radios. We have a load of these we use for group cycle rides/walks/camping with friends and their kids. They would be ideal for family kayaking/beach use but I bought cheap ones and it never occurred to me to buy IPx7 ones. I just googled and it turns out you can buy IPx7 ones that float like a handheld VHF and they're not too pricey. Too late for me - our existing walkie talkies will outlive our need for them - but useful to know. Kicking myself, TBH. ?

Your own paraphrase is wrong. The quote says "with the intention to use it without a licence".

It goes on to say " a licence is required... even if it is only for distress purposes". That does make it clear an unlicensed radio "for distress only" isn't allowed.

 

[duncan99210]

The only time Ofcom or anyone else are likely to take any notice of who’s using a handheld VHF is if someone is if the person using it is either say disrupting port operations by using the wrong channel or using the radio so as to be a ruddy nuisance. I agree that the official answer is that each and every radio should be licensed, each user should hold a certificate and that there’s an age limit. How often that’ll be enforced is moot. And given that like most things radio it’s down to the ITU rules don’t hold your breath about changes, no matter how sensible.

 

[Mark-1]

Your own paraphrase is wrong. The quote says "with the intention to use it without a licence".

It goes on to say " a licence is required... even if it is only for distress purposes". That does make it clear an unlicensed radio "for distress only" isn't allowed.

On the first point, yes, of course.

On the second point, in that case you wouldn't be intending to use it so it's not consistent with the first statement. We need to see the rules themselves. There's no point in analysing someone's paraphrase of them.

 

[st599]

I'm surprised at the lack of support for the issue but its convinced me not to waste my time trying to campaign for a common sense change of the law so it was useful in that respect.

It's an international regulation, Ofcom could raise a request at the ITU, but as the ITU is a UN body, they'd need to get consensus from all the members.

 

[Adios]

On the first point, yes, of course.

On the second point, in that case you wouldn't be intending to use it so it's not consistent with the first statement. We need to see the rules themselves. There's no point in analysing someone's paraphrase of them.

Well you would be intending to use it in an emergency so you have the intent to use it and you have it because you believe you might need to use it. I think this is the relevant part of the legislation Wireless Telegraphy Act 2006

If there happened to be a radio near you and it was an emergency and you used it it seems like everyone promises not to prosecute you rather than you have a right to do it.

 

[Mark-1]

It's an international regulation, Ofcom could raise a request at the ITU, but as the ITU is a UN body, they'd need to get consensus from all the members.

I'd agree and since there's zero enforcement it doesn't matter. It'still interesting, surely if you can pass the test you're good/old enough. A 16yo isn't an adult so no need to be an adult.

As someone above says I expect 16yo was the youngest professional seaman 'they' could imagine when they wrote the rules and a pair of 14yos out in their dad's boat just never occured to them.

 

[Adios]

It's an international regulation, Ofcom could raise a request at the ITU, but as the ITU is a UN body, they'd need to get consensus from all the members.

I struggle to believe that Ofcom couldn't grant licenses to under 16s in the UK which were only valid in the UK. We know that different countries have different legislation from ours on radio use or features eg ATIS, and thats before we brexited