Why does the coastguard do this?

[Daydream believer]

Just launched the boat & sitting (chartless) at the chart table when the VHF DSC went off. It was an urgency message from Dover.
Handy as I could try out the buttons on my new VHF.
What had me concerned was that they announced that vessel "£$%^ had engine issues & required a tow. Could a vessel in the vicinity give assistance?
No problem with that. It came over loud & clear on the Bradwll aerial so one guessed that it might be in the Thames estuary.
That being said, it could also be in the Channel if they were transmitting on all aerials
They then gave the vessel's position - twice- as lattitude & longitude My Ikea pencil was missing & my Barclays biro was dry. I poked a hole in the back of my damp barclay card receipt, so I did not manage to get it.
But even if I had, It was meaningless as I did not have a chart to hand. I did not later check if the vessel's position came up on the radio, but I assume not, as the Pan Pan came from Dover. ( i could be wrong on that) But I usually have my chart folded & it is a hassle to find a lat long position sitting in the cockpit when never need it.
If they had followed up with something like - 1 mile south of Beachy head, or 1 mile N of N Foreland, it would have meant a lot more to me & I expect to a lot of others.
On top of that they did not describe the vessel. If I had known where & was in a position to tow, I could tow a yacht of , say 28ft in reasonable conditions a short distance. But I could not tow a 40 ft MOBO
So why could they not just say what it was?
Would it not be easy to give position, plus a location, plus vessel description, in one simple transmission
Or do they not have a square for those details in their tick box when they get the distress call coming in?

 

[johnalison]

It's due to a failure to think of the message from the point of view of the recipient, a common sin. I have made a similar point in reverse in the past about boats not giving an approximate position before giving lat & long to three decimal places.

 

[ylop]

If its any comfort Belfast CG are just as guilty of this. As @johnalison says they aren't thinking about this from the recipient's perspective. Many of the people in a MRCC have probably never actually been on a yacht so have no appreciation for the comms challenge of a radio below deck time to find the pencil and something to write on, time to plot the position (they will have a keyboard rather than the shitty user interface on most plotters). On the rib we were often probably better placed than most yachts to give a tow, and our radio was right at the helm but hearing the message was harder and the chances of having a pencil to hand even less.

I don't know if they even realise for every offer of help they get, that a dozen other people have stopped what they were doing for 2 minutes to work out if they could help. A bit of me wonders if they are even expecting a response - or just want to be able to tell the lifeboat DLA "yes we've asked if any other vessel nearby could help".

My working assumption in relatively populated areas is that if I didn't hear the original call to the CG I probably am too far away to be of useful assistance. Of course that might be wrong - they may have used 999 or have had to use a h/h because power or mast problems or are a very small boat; which is why I do believe they should say "Any vessel in the viscinity of [landmark]"

 

[Jonny A]

I am trying to memorise approx. lat and long for major features up and down the Channel for just this reason. Such a simple thing for the Coastguard, and other VHF users, to get right though.

 

[Juan Twothree]

Just launched the boat & sitting (chartless) at the chart table when the VHF DSC went off. It was an urgency message from Dover.
Handy as I could try out the buttons on my new VHF.
What had me concerned was that they announced that vessel "£$%^ had engine issues & required a tow. Could a vessel in the vicinity give assistance?
No problem with that. It came over loud & clear on the Bradwll aerial so one guessed that it might be in the Thames estuary.
That being said, it could also be in the Channel if they were transmitting on all aerials
They then gave the vessel's position - twice- as lattitude & longitude My Ikea pencil was missing & my Barclays biro was dry. I poked a hole in the back of my damp barclay card receipt, so I did not manage to get it.
But even if I had, It was meaningless as I did not have a chart to hand. I did not later check if the vessel's position came up on the radio, but I assume not, as the Pan Pan came from Dover. ( i could be wrong on that) But I usually have my chart folded & it is a hassle to find a lat long position sitting in the cockpit when never need it.
If they had followed up with something like - 1 mile south of Beachy head, or 1 mile N of N Foreland, it would have meant a lot more to me & I expect to a lot of others.
On top of that they did not describe the vessel. If I had known where & was in a position to tow, I could tow a yacht of , say 28ft in reasonable conditions a short distance. But I could not tow a 40 ft MOBO
So why could they not just say what it was?
Would it not be easy to give position, plus a location, plus vessel description, in one simple transmission
Or do they not have a square for those details in their tick box when they get the distress call coming in?

That's a very valid point, and one we've made repeatedly to the CG staff. However there's such a high turnover of people that we need to keep reminding them. Plus I think they teach them to use lat and long rather than local place names, in case another CG ops room is covering, and doesn't know the area.

If you think it's difficult writing down a lat and long on a yacht, try doing at it 35 knots in an ILB.

 

[Tranona]

Maybe bearing to or from a known mark easier than lat/long.

 

[LittleSister]

I, too, would find it a huge advantage if they gave a description of the general area.

I've had similar on several occasions, and either not got the Lat/Long numbers down for similar reasons to you (more likely now that my hearing has deteriorated), or did get them and spent a few minutes getting chart out and found that the issue (I think on occasion there was some live firing or naval exercise I was nervous about) was a good day's sailing away. I guess distances will often be much further (but some not!) if they're broadcasting on all aerials in the much expanded coastguard areas.

After such experiences at times i just don't bother if I'm busy or can't hear properly or whatever - the chances of it affecting me or me being able to assist, I found, were negligible.

I'm less bothered about, say, description of vessel or other info about a casualty needing assistance, as in the unlikely event I'm nearby and could get there faster than other vessels (most of which are bigger and faster than mine), I can always call them up to check. I would be doing that anyway for attending a casualty, to save me or someone else a wasted diversion, and because I'd probably need the vessel's VHF address.

 

[LittleSister]

That's a very valid point, and one we've made repeatedly to the CG staff. However there's such a high turnover of people that we need to keep reminding them. Plus I think they teach them to use lat and long rather than local place names, in case another CG ops room is covering, and doesn't know the area.
. . .

Please keep plugging away art it, but it needs to be in everyone's operating instructions, not just conveyed to individual staff.

Can over-detailed local place names (which may be duplicated elsewhere, or more than one name, etc.) not be avoided by a broad description, saying e.g. 'Central English Channel, approximately 5 miles SE of Portland Bill'. The Coastguard staff surely have access to onscreen maps, even of places outside their own areas?

 

[fredrussell]

Can’t help thinking What Three Words would be useful here. Fish Spanner Monkey is a lot easier to remember than a two strings of numbers.

Edit: I mean in addition to lat/long, not replacing it, obviously.

 

[smert]

What3words is fine if you have a suitable device and Internet connection. Neither are as ubiquitous as charts and the ability to use them, at sea.

I suspect that a lot of the processes the CG use are/were designed with Commercial vessels in mind, but are actually used/initiated more by leisure vessels.

 

[LittleSister]

. . .

I suspect that a lot of the processes the CG use are/were designed with Commercial vessels in mind, but are actually used/initiated more by leisure vessels.

You would have thought that the CG would be aware their services, and responsibilities, relate to both commercial and leisure vessels.

 

[Stingo]

What3words is fine if you have a suitable device and Internet connection. Neither are as ubiquitous as charts and the ability to use them, at sea.
....

What3Words does work without an internet connection. Try it, turn off wifi/data on your device, then open What3Words and tap the location icon

 

[Juan Twothree]

Can’t help thinking What Three Words would be useful here. Fish Spanner Monkey is a lot easier to remember than a two strings of numbers.

Edit: I mean in addition to lat/long, not replacing it, obviously.

W3W is great if the words are already written down and you can copy and paste then into the app, but words that sound similar, or plurals, can be a pain over the VHF.

A minor error can put the position in the middle of the Gobi desert rather than just off the coast.

We sometimes end up spelling the words phonetically, which to me defeats the object.

 

[MADRIGAL]

If its any comfort Belfast CG are just as guilty of this. As @johnalison says they aren't thinking about this from the recipient's perspective. Many of the people in a MRCC have probably never actually been on a yacht so have no appreciation for the comms challenge of a radio below deck time to find the pencil and something to write on, time to plot the position (they will have a keyboard rather than the shitty user interface on most plotters). On the rib we were often probably better placed than most yachts to give a tow, and our radio was right at the helm but hearing the message was harder and the chances of having a pencil to hand even less.

I don't know if they even realise for every offer of help they get, that a dozen other people have stopped what they were doing for 2 minutes to work out if they could help. A bit of me wonders if they are even expecting a response - or just want to be able to tell the lifeboat DLA "yes we've asked if any other vessel nearby could help".

My working assumption in relatively populated areas is that if I didn't hear the original call to the CG I probably am too far away to be of useful assistance. Of course that might be wrong - they may have used 999 or have had to use a h/h because power or mast problems or are a very small boat; which is why I do believe they should say "Any vessel in the viscinity of [landmark]"

It must be the same the whole world over. Canadian Coast Guard radio stations do the same thing, as I search under my buoyancy aid for a pencil and try to remember even part of the lat/long they just gave to two or three decimals. Meanwhile, had they given a general location with range and bearing to a landmark, everyone would know pretty much instantly if they were in a position to assist.

 

[ylop]

Please keep plugging away art it, but it needs to be in everyone's operating instructions, not just conveyed to individual staff.

Can over-detailed local place names (which may be duplicated elsewhere, or more than one name, etc.) not be avoided by a broad description, saying e.g. 'Central English Channel, approximately 5 miles SE of Portland Bill'. The Coastguard staff surely have access to onscreen maps, even of places outside their own areas?

There are risks of confusion - we have a lot of "Eileen Mor" and "Skirr Dubh" in Scotland as well as multiple Tarbe(r)ts, two Carsaigs etc.. So broad description to get attention and lat/lon to define the specifics.

Can’t help thinking What Three Words would be useful here. Fish Spanner Monkey is a lot easier to remember than a two strings of numbers.

Edit: I mean in addition to lat/long, not replacing it, obviously.

The problem is Fish.Spanner.Monkey is in Chile. Fish.Spanner.Monkeys is somewhere in central asia.
dish.spanner.monkey is in Greenland fish.hammer.monkey is in Buckinhamshire... Some mishearings / spelling / autocorrects are much closer to the correct one (but far enough to be very wrong). If your CG officers are clear enough to tell the difference between fish/dish and hammer/spanner then you need to come somewhere with proper accents...

What3words is fine if you have a suitable device and Internet connection. Neither are as ubiquitous as charts and the ability to use them, at sea.

If you have W3W app installed it can work without a connection BUT its not language agnostic - so the french fisherman who is only a mile away will have three totally unrelated words; most people don't have it installed. Typing with cold wet hands just to check if someone is near is a lot harder than "Near the Needles" "near South Queensferry" "west of Mull" "in Oban Bay" etc. By all means provide the Lat/Lon - if I'm in that rough area I'll ask you to repeat it if necessary; bust don't make my look at the chart to see if the location in Oban Bay or West of Mull. The transmissions often don't seem to be mast specific so I've heard requests for vessels that turned out to be in Rathlin Island whilst I was half way up loch long - even at lifeboat speeds a VERY long way away.

I suspect that a lot of the processes the CG use are/were designed with Commercial vessels in mind, but are actually used/initiated more by leisure vessels.

I think in "open sea" you can probable use your lat lon and theirs to very quickly know if its on the same chart! But near the coast that might not translate due to depth, headlands etc.

 

[Stemar]

They don't always get it wrong. There was a mayday relay from Solent the other day, and they gave lat & long, plus something like "about two miles off Whatever Bay. Since that was 20 miles away, I immediately knew I couldn't help, so I sat still, listening to the people wanting radio checks through SCG organising assistance.

 

[justanothersailboat]

Attempting to write down a lat and long from a radio transmission has a strangely "being in an exam" feeling to it for some reason. Or is that just me?

It should not be very difficult to write a bit of software that takes a lat long and emits a standardised verbal description that is helpful a very high percentage of the time ("in" + [name of area polygon] + [x[ + "miles" + [compass point] + "of " [nearest landmark]). And, indeed, these days it might not be that hard to write one that turns a description into a likely coordinate either. Surely the CG have things like this?

 

[DanTribe]

Just launched the boat & sitting (chartless) at the chart table when the VHF DSC went off. It was an urgency message from Dover.
Handy as I could try out the buttons on my new VHF.
What had me concerned was that they announced that vessel "£$%^ had engine issues & required a tow. Could a vessel in the vicinity give assistance?
No problem with that. It came over loud & clear on the Bradwll aerial so one guessed that it might be in the Thames estuary.
That being said, it could also be in the Channel if they were transmitting on all aerials
They then gave the vessel's position - twice- as lattitude & longitude My Ikea pencil was missing & my Barclays biro was dry. I poked a hole in the back of my damp barclay card receipt, so I did not manage to get it.
But even if I had, It was meaningless as I did not have a chart to hand. I did not later check if the vessel's position came up on the radio, but I assume not, as the Pan Pan came from Dover. ( i could be wrong on that) But I usually have my chart folded & it is a hassle to find a lat long position sitting in the cockpit when never need it.
If they had followed up with something like - 1 mile south of Beachy head, or 1 mile N of N Foreland, it would have meant a lot more to me & I expect to a lot of others.
On top of that they did not describe the vessel. If I had known where & was in a position to tow, I could tow a yacht of , say 28ft in reasonable conditions a short distance. But I could not tow a 40 ft MOBO
So why could they not just say what it was?
Would it not be easy to give position, plus a location, plus vessel description, in one simple transmission
Or do they not have a square for those details in their tick box when they get the distress call coming in?

I heard that yesterday afternoon from Burnham.
II thought they did give a general area, something like "bearing 090 from Ramsgate" [just an example] I didn't pay much attention as I wasn't in a position to assist.

 

[Aja]

Maybe bearing to or from a known mark easier than lat/long.

You would have to assume the vessel needing assistance would know/ have the means to do this.

Not everyone are whizzes when it comes to arithmetic, whilst lat/long appears somewhere close to the 'on' page on a GPS.

 

[Daydream believer]

I do not have a clue about this w3w thing & I do not usually have a phone handy when sailing. It is bad enough getting reception here on land in the Dengie area, let alone at sea.
I just cannot understand how people even manage to type on the darned things; let alone navigate with them. On the boat, mine stays out of the way in a locker where it belongs.
Although I could sometimes apreciate that call from the bloke with the latest in conservatories, when a wave is dripping down my neck. Seems they do not do visits in the Fisherman's Gat though.