Accessing light characteristics info in Navionics charts on plotter

[westhinder]

Something weird has happened to the information layers on my Navionics charts. I am pretty certain that I saw the light characteristics of buoys or lighthouses by simply putting the cursor on the feature and clicking. The information window that came up showed the characteristics immediately.
Since I renewed my subscription that info is no longer visible in the first window, instead there is a lot of ‘administrative’ info like which country the area belongs to, depth, type of bottom etc. After much fiddling I have found I have to click again on the detailed part of the chart that is shown alongside the text and only then the info about characterstics, shape, colour etc pops up. I use the Navionics charts in a Raymarine Axiom+ with up to date software. It is the case both in my recently updated U.K. + Holland charts and in a newly bought Scandinavia chart. You would expect the most important info to appear first, not in a semi-hidden, second layer.
Strangely enough that same info does appear immediately in the Navionics app.

 

[Mark-1]

Something weird has happened to the information layers on my Navionics charts. I am pretty certain that I saw the light characteristics of buoys or lighthouses by simply putting the cursor on the feature and clicking. The information window that came up showed the characteristics immediately.
Since I renewed my subscription that info is no longer visible in the first window, instead there is a lot of ‘administrative’ info like which country the area belongs to, depth, type of bottom etc. After much fiddling I have found I have to click again on the detailed part of the chart that is shown alongside the text and only then the info about characterstics, shape, colour etc pops up. I use the Navionics charts in a Raymarine Axiom+ with up to date software. It is the case both in my recently updated U.K. + Holland charts and in a newly bought Scandinavia chart. You would expect the most important info to appear first, not in a semi-hidden, second layer.
Strangely enough that same info does appear immediately in the Navionics app.

I've always thought light characteristics should be on the chart itself, not in a pop up. It's really frustrating, but it's been that way for as long as I can remember. At least 10 years. Sounds like it's got worse.

It's not clutter, it's essential information. Maybe it needs a toggle so it's on the chart but hidden when you don't want it.

 

[dunedin]

I've always thought light characteristics should be on the chart itself, not in a pop up. It's really frustrating, but it's been that way for as long as I can remember. At least 10 years. Sounds like it's got worse.

It's not clutter, it's essential information. Maybe it needs a toggle so it's on the chart but hidden when you don't want it.

Surely light characteristics IS clutter on a chart unless navigating at night. I am happy to click on a light to get the info if needed.

 

[Mark-1]

Surely light characteristics IS clutter on a chart unless navigating at night. I am happy to click on a light to get the info if needed.

Great! ....but I find it excruciating.

If you've seen a light and you want to know where it is you have to laboriously click every potential light one by one, instead of simply glancing around. Drives me mad.

 

[ylop]

Great! ....but I find it excruciating.

If you've seen a light and you want to know where it is you have to laboriously click every potential light one by one, instead of simply glancing around. Drives me mad.

Sounds like you are trying to use a chartplotter like a paper chart. The plotter already knows where you are, and you know where the light is relative to the boat so there can be very limited number of likely options.

 

[Mark-1]

Sounds like you are trying to use a chartplotter like a paper chart. The plotter already knows where you are, and you know where the light is relative to the boat so there can be very limited number of likely options.

Yes, and I have to click on every single likely option. I don't want to, I want it visible at a glance.

 

[dunedin]

Yes, and I have to click on every single likely option. I don't want to, I want it visible at a glance.

Buy some raster charts then?

 

[westhinder]

Surely light characteristics IS clutter on a chart unless navigating at night. I am happy to click on a light to get the info if needed.

I am happy too to click on a light, but then I expect the characteristics to be the first item that becomes available. Which it no longer is, and that’s not acceptable

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Yes, and I have to click on every single likely option. I don't want to, I want it visible at a glance.

I agree with you but there should be an option to switch on and off this feature. In an area of high light density it would be a useful feature. However, on a small plotter screen, displaying all likely light characteristics may not work and clutter the screen too much.

 

[Mark-1]

I agree with you but there should be an option to switch on and off this feature. In an area of high light density it would be a useful feature. However, on a small plotter screen, displaying all likely light characteristics may not work and clutter the screen too much.

Yeah, a toggle would keep everyone happy.

 

[ylop]

Yes, and I have to click on every single likely option. I don't want to, I want it visible at a glance.

That’s like trying to use an outboard as a paddle! Both basically do the same job but if you want to navigate like you are on paper (where you observe the surroundings then transfer that information to the chart) then paper is better because of the physical real estate etc. if you really want a digital paper experience then I think Tom Cuncliffe is involved in a product for traditional navigation made electronic.

BUT if you want the best experience from using a plotter, it’s probably best not to treat it as a digital version of paper navigation, and embrace the digital way. That means reducing clutter most of the time - the bouy presumably marks something interesting (a shallow, a rock, etc). Making it harder to see the actual feature by displaying text is risky. In printed cartography (and raster versions of that), a cartographer can decide where to place the text annotation with the relevant font size so it does not hide useful map detail. Asking a digital system to do that as you zoom is hard.

 

[Mark-1]

That’s like trying to use an outboard as a paddle! Both basically do the same job but if you want to navigate like you are on paper (where you observe the surroundings then transfer that information to the chart)

Not sure I'm with you....

 

[ylop]

Not sure I'm with you....

most chart plotters are not designed to be used as a simple digitisation of your paper chart - where you would look at a bouy, determine a bearing, look at another feature and determine a bearing and then transfer that to the chart to know your location. Even if you didn’t go through a formal process of doing that every time we orient ourselves on a map that is essentially what we are doing with varying degrees of precision. There’s obviously no need to do that with a plotter as it has a dozen or more satellites with atomic clocks giving position accuracy and precision far better than any yachtsman with a compass.

Your plotter has already massively narrowed down the range of light you might be seeing off your starboard bow - because it shows you where you are. If you are working FROM the plotter then you might be looking for one specific light - but that is not laborious to find the characteristics of a single light. All the other lights are actually irrelevant at that moment. If you are really going to be navigating in a tricky area of lights then prepare a pilotage plan.

Personally I like paper charts for planning, and for discussing with guests where we are what they can see etc - but plotter for execution.

 

[Mark-1]

most chart plotters are not designed to be used as a simple digitisation of your paper chart - where you would look at a bouy, determine a bearing, look at another feature and determine a bearing and then transfer that to the chart to know your location. Even if you didn’t go through a formal process of doing that every time we orient ourselves on a map that is essentially what we are doing with varying degrees of precision. There’s obviously no need to do that with a plotter as it has a dozen or more satellites with atomic clocks giving position accuracy and precision far better than any yachtsman with a compass.

Your plotter has already massively narrowed down the range of light you might be seeing off your starboard bow - because it shows you where you are. If you are working FROM the plotter then you might be looking for one specific light - but that is not laborious to find the characteristics of a single light. All the other lights are actually irrelevant at that moment. If you are really going to be navigating in a tricky area of lights then prepare a pilotage plan.

Personally I like paper charts for planning, and for discussing with guests where we are what they can see etc - but plotter for execution.

Fair bit of word salad there.

Light characteristics is a fundamental thing many people need from a chart. Many people need to do it regularly. Therefore it needs to be available fast and easily, the best way to do that is put it on the chart data.

That comes at the cost of additional 'clutter' on the chart which is useless in daylight. The obvious solution to that is to allow it to toggle on and off not to permanently hide it behind a click or even worse, two clicks.

EDIT: Changed to add nuance as suggested.

 

[dunedin]

…….

Light characteristics is a fundamental thing you need from a chart. You need to do it regularly. Therefore it needs to be available fast and easily, the best way to do that is put it on the chart data.

……..

It is a matter of opinion - and how and where you sail - as to whether light characteristics are needed “regularly”

I have sailed many tens of thousands of miles but can’t remember when last looked up a light characteristic. In coastal sailing tend to do day sails - and in summer can easily do 80 miles or so in daylight. Plus most rocks where I sail are not marked by lit buoys, so use GPS and visual pilotage instead.
And when crossed larger seas and oceans, there haven’t been any lit buoys to refer to mid Atlantic - and the North Sea is dominated by lights from oil rigs and support vessels.

PS. When using Navionics on a plotter it may be the plotter software not Navionics that controls the user interface.

 

[ylop]

Fair bit of word salad there.

Light characteristics is a fundamental thing many people need from a chart.

Use a paper chart then. (Or if you really want an electronic version a raster chart of the paper chart) - you are using vector charts, the whole advantage is that the data is stored in a database not an image - so its possible to both declutter the screen and have it available to drill into.

Many people need to do it regularly.

I'm challenging that assumption. I think you need to learn to use your plotter how the manufacturer intended and you'll infrequently NEED to check the light characteristics. Even if there is something peculiar about where you operate that does require this - is it really "many people".

Therefore it needs to be available fast and easily, the best way to do that is put it on the chart data.

But I suspect you don't understand how hard it would be to show that data at a legible size, on a zoomable vector chart without risking obscuring some detail (is it more important to find the light details, or know that the bouy marks a rock!).

That comes at the cost of additional 'clutter' on the chart which is useless in daylight. The obvious solution to that is to allow it to toggle on and off not to permanently hide it behind a click or even worse, two clicks.

Well you can suggest it to the product manager. I'll bet they have data on how often users drill into this stuff in the app - the latest navoionics app on iOS requires you to hover over the app, tap (?) icon, then tap the bouy or beacon on the list to see its characteristics.

 

[Mark-1]

Looks like we've discussed this before:

Do Buoys and light have less relevance?

 

[awol]

Maybe there's a reason they are "not to be used for navigation"? Do ENC systems have similar problems?

 

[RunAgroundHard]

Maybe there's a reason they are "not to be used for navigation"? Do ENC systems have similar problems?

Apparently not, they show characteristics of lights next to the symbol. Highly likely it is a layer that can be shown at the relevant zoom level. Also ENC tends to be a displayed on a larger monitor that allows detail to be shown.

Display of Isolated Dangers and Soundings.

 

[dunedin]

Maybe there's a reason they are "not to be used for navigation"? Do ENC systems have similar problems?

I think the "not for navigation" nonsense is a licence term arbitrarily imposed by some IHO's when selling their chart data to leisure chart publishers. No actual relationship to accuracy, usability or safety.
Also AFAIK an ENC (Electronic Navigation Chart) is simply a bunch of chart data in vector format - sold for a much higher price than the same data to leisure craft suppliers (see above). On big commercial ships it is displayed via an ECDIS (Electronic Chart Display & Information System) which will decide what information is displayed.