Why did they think it was a good idea?

[dancrane]

I suspect your problem was you had a dinghy, so you had all the hassle of the launching...nowhere to relax, get out of the weather...any cheap small yacht with accommodation...would be a completely different experience.

I wish it was that easy. Five years back, I only had the dinghy; fun, but arduous and rarely relaxing. Hence I bought the Achilles 24 in March 2019...

...it was five times more money than the dinghy, to buy and to berth. It was horribly cramped, comfortless in the wet, unusable in winter and I never slept an unbroken hour on board. No question, it provided happy proximity to nature, a fine venue for fresh-brewed coffee, and pretty good sailing, but there was no contentment in the simplicity. It was the wrong boat, even though I'd thought for years it looked right.

I'm still looking for what I want, but I know now what I really don't want, and unfortunately, that's most of what's out there.
.

 

[johnalison]

I'm still looking for what I want, but I know now what I really don't want, and unfortunately, that's most of what's out there.
.

There's no doubt that size matters. Although I greatly enjoyed the last time I sailed a dinghy, which was a friend's Topper life on a proper yacht is that much more comfortable. If only such a thing didn't cost a lot the decision would be easy. We moved house when I retired and used the difference in price to buy an HR34. this was probably pretty stupid, as our old house, inside the M25 would probably fetch a small fortune now, but we've had nearly a quarter of a century of satisfaction from the boat that no amount of gardening would have matched.

Our boat probably wouldn't meet your needs, but it sails very well, is easy to handle with 19/20 rig, comfortable, and will cruise under motor at around 6 1/2 knots, and these are presumably the sort of things that you want. There are boats in the 28-38' range that do all these things in one way or other, some better and some worse. I never had a great desire to own an HR but in the event it was the only boat in its class that didn't have at least one thing I couldn't live with.

 

[Minerva]

I wish it was that easy. Five years back, I only had the dinghy; fun, but arduous and rarely relaxing. Hence I bought the Achilles 24 in March 2019...

...it was five times more money than the dinghy, to buy and to berth. It was horribly cramped, comfortless in the wet, unusable in winter and I never slept an unbroken hour on board. No question, it provided happy proximity to nature, a fine venue for fresh-brewed coffee, and pretty good sailing, but there was no contentment in the simplicity. It was the wrong boat, even though I'd thought for years it looked right.

I'm still looking for what I want, but I know now what I really don't want, and unfortunately, that's most of what's out there.
.

I’ve came to learn that the most expensive thing to buy is the thing you don’t spend *quite* enough on. Sounds like you experienced that in spades - all the downsides of ‘big boat’ ownership with none of the upside.

 

[johnalison]

I’ve came to learn that the most expensive thing to buy is the thing you don’t spend *quite* enough on. Sounds like you experienced that in spades - all the downsides of ‘big boat’ ownership with none of the upside.

I’ve seen both sides of that coin. When we bought our Sadler 29 in 1987 we worked our way through the specification to see how many optional extras we could cross out without losing the boat show discount. When we got to the Southampton show and ordered the HR in 1999 we found that the Swedish Krone was dropping by the minute after the collapse of Ericsson and we kept on trying to find yet more extras to order and stay within our budget. The trick is in knowing which extras are going to be necessary and can’t easily be added later, and those that you can add yourself and save money, such as the VHF.

 

[dancrane]

There's no doubt that size matters. A...proper yacht is that much more comfortable. ...an HR34...the only boat in its class that didn't have one thing I couldn't live with.

I’ve came to learn that the most expensive thing to buy is the thing you don’t spend quite enough on. Sounds like you experienced that in spades - all the downsides of ‘big boat’ ownership with none of the upside.

These points are both spot-on, thank you.

The Achilles 24 isn't a bad design on paper, but it felt like a three-quarter-scale version of a 32ft sloop of the period. So everything is undersized.

There's at least one excellent sub-30-footer that would be all I could ask, but I'm too tight-fisted to pay the (reasonable, but to me hefty) asking price.

Bizarrely, I know of one design under 20ft which might achieve everything I want. It wouldn't provide walk-upright accommodation or a separate WC, but with a little destructive alteration to remove cooking and bathroom corners from the tiny cabin, it could house a generous double berth that wouldn't taper at the foot, and could retain a removable mid-section to form luxurious sofas round a footwell. We'd cook in the cockpit.

I'd go into more detail but these boats are so rarely for sale, I allow myself to believe I must keep my brilliant plan secret, or tempt rival buyers.

 

[dancrane]

Discretion, Mr Ming! It's deplorable that I haven't moved on the idea in...good grief, two years since we discussed it briefly, but the flame still burns.

 

[Snowgoose-1]

Bloody great headsails and small mainsails……..now when I am old and frail it’s a battle to tack or reduce sail even with furling gear which leaves a great lump on the forestry.My7/8 rigged mashford sloop put the sail area in the main but sometime in the 1960s racing yachts became the benchmark of yacht

Racing hand me downs fashions generally benefit the cruising man but masthead rig is not one of them for me . I now sail with a 3/4 rig and suits an old man perfectly.

Don't think I could handle running backstays but swept back spreaders solve the problem in smaller boats. Bendy topmasts also great poser value.

 

[billskip]

How long is a piece of cord?

2 long....that's why he cut it...

 

[Bouba]

2 long....that's why he cut it...

and then he burnt it as firewood

 

[Stemar]

Size does matter, but for pottering around and doing this

The actual sailing is only part of it. The lying at night at anchor hearing the birds, the boat gently rocking and wavelets chuckling against the hull, feeling the boat turning with the change of tide . . .

You don't need a big boat. We did it for years with a Snapdragon 24, which must be one of the smallest "proper" cruisers with a head you can go into and (just) shut the door. Add a full cockpit tent, and you've got enough space for a couple to spend a week or more without setting foot ashore, even if the weather isn't brilliant. No, it isn't the most exciting boat to sail, but everything's a compromise, and no compact comfy cruiser is going to win many races.

If you want a boat to go out in winter, I don't reckon you could do much better than an LM27 or, if the budget will stretch, a Konsort Duo.

 

[dancrane]

Konsort Duo is the sub-30-footer I'm too tightfisted to buy, even though it's the only boat I know that I would gladly move on board today and not want to start making changes.

It's a rare bit of design - Westerly made it comfortable for a couple instead of assuming a usual crew of five or more. Took me 25 years before I realised how good they are.

Now, unfortunately, headlining is an issue aboard most examples.

 

[johnalison]

Size does matter, but for pottering around and doing this

You don't need a big boat. We did it for years with a Snapdragon 24, which must be one of the smallest "proper" cruisers with a head you can go into and (just) shut the door.

The Westerly Cirrus 22' has a solid door that doubles as a door for the fore-cabin and the heads, and almost standing room in places.

 

[Minerva]

Konsort Duo is the sub-30-footer I'm too tightfisted to buy, even though it's the only boat I know that I would gladly move on board today and not want to start making changes.

It's a rare bit of design - Westerly made it comfortable for a couple instead of assuming a usual crew of five or more. Took me 25 years before I realised how good they are.

Now, unfortunately, headlining is an issue aboard most examples.

How about this;
https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/boat/1990-hunter-horizon-32-9104774/

Could be idea for your porpoises

 

[dancrane]

I do like some bits of that Hunter (seen months ago on Apollo Duck), especially the bilge keels.

Difficult decision - is a separate wheelhouse that lets the lower saloon keep the lights on after dark, better than a multi-purpose deck saloon that provides a great view from the place we mostly spend time at anchor or when moored?

If I was considering boats that big, I'd be nearly in Nauticat 33 territory, more my style, notwithstanding the flaky wooden cabin-tops on the relatively affordable examples.

Bloody great headsails...

Singlehanding the dinghy, I found the deck-sweeping genoa a pain because it obstructed so much of the view.

Can't believe it never occurred to me to re-cut the foot and move the genoa blocks and fairleads to match. I certainly wasn't fussed about peak performance.

Is there a proper reason (discounting the absurd obsession with best performance) not to lift the bottom of the headsail?
.

 

[MisterBaxter]

I believe that a higher clew on an overlapping foresail is a positive advantage if you have roller reefing, as it reduces the need to shift the sheet block when you reef. Aside from the reduction in sail area, that is... But for roller reefing a somewhat overlapping sail with a high clew might be better that a 100% sail with a low clew and the same area.

 

[Bouba]

How about this;
https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/boat/1990-hunter-horizon-32-9104774/

Could be idea for your porpoises

From the same source…
https://www.boatsandoutboards.co.uk/boat/1982-northshore-ranger-36-9283907/
A twin diesel on it’s original engines with one engine on 296 hours and the other on 159 hours….on a 42 year old boat

 

[LittleSister]

I wish it was that easy. Five years back, I only had the dinghy; fun, but arduous and rarely relaxing. Hence I bought the Achilles 24 in March 2019...

...it was five times more money than the dinghy, to buy and to berth. It was horribly cramped, comfortless in the wet, unusable in winter and I never slept an unbroken hour on board. No question, it provided happy proximity to nature, a fine venue for fresh-brewed coffee, and pretty good sailing, but there was no contentment in the simplicity. It was the wrong boat, even though I'd thought for years it looked right.

I'm still looking for what I want, but I know now what I really don't want, and unfortunately, that's most of what's out there.
.

Sorry I hadn't realised, or had forgotten, you'd moved on from the dinghy. And yes, the running costs of a boat with a keel and a lid will be significantly higher than a dinghy (though you do get a huge qualitative leap in possibilities for that money).

But I don't think your Achilles experience is typical for a 24 footer.

These points are both spot-on, thank you.

The Achilles 24 isn't a bad design on paper, but it felt like a three-quarter-scale version of a 32ft sloop of the period. So everything is undersized.

There's at least one excellent sub-30-footer that would be all I could ask, but I'm too tight-fisted to pay the (reasonable, but to me hefty) asking price.

Bizarrely, I know of one design under 20ft which might achieve everything I want. It wouldn't provide walk-upright accommodation or a separate WC, but with a little destructive alteration to remove cooking and bathroom corners from the tiny cabin, it could house a generous double berth that wouldn't taper at the foot, and could retain a removable mid-section to form luxurious sofas round a footwell. We'd cook in the cockpit.

I'd go into more detail but these boats are so rarely for sale, I allow myself to believe I must keep my brilliant plan secret, or tempt rival buyers.

Do bear in mind that an Achilles 24 is remarkably small for a 24 footer.

My 'previous' boat for example - a Samphire 23 (currently for sale if I'm allowed to mention that) - has a shorter LOA than the Achilles, but a lot more space, standing headroom (albeit at 6'1" I had to duck my head), separate heads compartment, heating, and what must be one of the largest double berths on a 23 footer, and that's in a very traditional looking (but modern construction) boat. I sailed that right through the winter some years (ice on deck and the like!) and I'm far from tough, cruised thousands of miles, and for up to four weeks weeks two-up (and only not longer because of work constraints).

A Centaur, for example, would be vast by comparison with the Achilles. Some other sub-26 foot boats have significantly more volume than my Samphire, but may not be so easy on the eye and/or don't necessarily have layouts that are very practical for real cruising and contemporary sensibilities.

Maybe an LM24 - smaller sister of the LM27 - might suit you? They forego the separate forecabin of the 27, but have two full length settee berths (plus others), a proper saloon table (slides up to the 'ceiling' when not in use), plus the fold-out cockpit table and fold-away cockpit canopy that effectively gives you an extra 'room' when not underway; plus the wheelhouse that you covet (but can also be tiller steered from the cockpit). There are fewer LM24s about than LM27s, but they tend to go for a significantly lower price. (There is also the rarer LM26 more modern-looking update of the LM24 (and the LM28 update of the LM27), but these tend to be significantly higher in price than the earlier series.)

Whatever, I hope you can find some way to get back on the water before too long to do the kind of boating you have in mind.

 

[LittleSister]

This and so much this.

For me it's finishing work on a Friday and my wife an I discuss / vent about our respective working week on the drive to the boat. But work chat stays in the car as we row out to the mooring. Then within half an hour of parking the food / clothes are stowed, work is completely forgotten about, we open a nice bottle of something and enjoy a Hebridean evening and bird song.

In the morning we lie in bed, hatch ajar and savour a nice coffee as the boat rocks gently and the sound of nature. Such a perfect antidote to the stressful working week!

We also stop talking about work when we step aboard....because that’s when all the boat work starts

As Joyce Sleightholme so aptly puts it in 'The Sea Wife's Handbook':

"As a means of getting from A to B, sailing has little to commend it - it is slow and often uncomfortable - but as a means of putting behind you the cares and stresses of everyday life there is nothing better."

 

[dancrane]

Thanks for those kind and very encouraging words.

I apologise to Wansworth for once again hijacking his thread, but I reckon he and I (and possibly others) share something in respect of boat-owning - a deep doubt about whether owning the boats we hope we'd enjoy, is worth the money and effort it will surely suck out of us.

That risk can be reduced by the right boat. My Achilles was a poor example of the class. I know now, even the best example wouldn't be right for me.

Most yachtsmen curse foul weather but endure it or change their plans. I refuse to sit outside in rain and cold or have my plans washed out, so for boat-owning value (because it extends use to all seasons) I need a boat with a weatherproof helm as well as an outside tiller.

The LM 24 is very appealing. It looks like such an agreeable place to be, compared with the same-length Achilles! It may not be wise to focus on untried designs purely because they feature a wheel shelter, but there's no boat without an inside helm on my 'possibles' list, so it's a very short list.

 

[oldmanofthehills]

Worth ever penny for this aging viking. Even living in cities i hate being more that 1 mile from river or lake

Of course i get seasick, of course the boat we can afford is more cramped or more slow than we want but still

So we have dried out in green bay in scilly and i am tired as spent 4 days sorting out watery fuel and fouled filters - but here we are. Crab brought, navigator at yoga at local hotel , and peace reigns (anchor dug in, dinghy secure)

And i love my extended genoa. No fearful looks from navigator as I reef mainsail as she rolls - and she does- just tug of genoa furling lines instead and suddenly nearly balanced for F7. Pity tea mug went flying but boats fine

We are a-sail