Why a mizzen?

Laminar Flow

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Our current boat is a ketch. It is the second I've owned and I have sailed others and a schooner as well. In the seventies, blue water and ketch were synonymous. Whatever the handling benefits of a ketch may be, compared to a sloop the drag/lift ratio is not favourable. The multi-masted rigs seen on some really small boats back then, with a mizzen the size of a beach towel, were really just an affectation.

For a while the yawl was favoured for racing, because the mizzen area was not rated, as it was commonly accepted that it did not contribute to drive. One could, however, set a big stays'l from it, off the wind, at least until that loop hole was closed.

The real benefit for mizzens was at the time there were no effective means of self-steering - think of a yawl's mizzen as a large above deck wind vane.
On fishing vessels, a mizzen could be left standing to keep the boat pointed and control motion while the crew was at work. We still, on the occasion keep the mizzen up at anchor the cut down rolling.

Today, as we are obsessed with out and out efficiency and have effective sail handling systems on even the smallest units, the ketch or really any multimasted rig, except on very large boats, is pretty much obsolete, other than for nostalgic or aesthetic reasons, perhaps. Up or downwind, the mizzen is mostly just along for the ride.
 

roaringgirl

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Our current boat is a ketch. It is the second I've owned and I have sailed others and a schooner as well. In the seventies, blue water and ketch were synonymous. Whatever the handling benefits of a ketch may be, compared to a sloop the drag/lift ratio is not favourable. The multi-masted rigs seen on some really small boats back then, with a mizzen the size of a beach towel, were really just an affectation.

For a while the yawl was favoured for racing, because the mizzen area was not rated, as it was commonly accepted that it did not contribute to drive. One could, however, set a big stays'l from it, off the wind, at least until that loop hole was closed.

The real benefit for mizzens was at the time there were no effective means of self-steering - think of a yawl's mizzen as a large above deck wind vane.
On fishing vessels, a mizzen could be left standing to keep the boat pointed and control motion while the crew was at work. We still, on the occasion keep the mizzen up at anchor the cut down rolling.

Today, as we are obsessed with out and out efficiency and have effective sail handling systems on even the smallest units, the ketch or really any multimasted rig, except on very large boats, is pretty much obsolete, other than for nostalgic or aesthetic reasons, perhaps. Up or downwind, the mizzen is mostly just along for the ride.

One mast and rigging is cheaper than 2. I'm told that a sloop rig is more efficient, but our 40ft ketch points higher and goes faster to windward than our friends' 49ft Westerly. (This may be due to other factors, we have a fully battened mains'l, theirs is in-mast furling). When we raise the mizzen our windward VMG improves.
 

John the kiwi

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Not mentioned so far is the engineering aspect. A single tall mast needs a lot of staying and precision setup utilising modern materials and methods.
Back in wooden mast/ galvanised wire stay days, the tall masts of today were not possible. Even in Whitbread Round the world races the ketch rig was used even after designers knew that a sloop or cutter rig was more efficient. The technology was not then up to it.
 

geem

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Our current boat is a ketch. It is the second I've owned and I have sailed others and a schooner as well. In the seventies, blue water and ketch were synonymous. Whatever the handling benefits of a ketch may be, compared to a sloop the drag/lift ratio is not favourable. The multi-masted rigs seen on some really small boats back then, with a mizzen the size of a beach towel, were really just an affectation.

For a while the yawl was favoured for racing, because the mizzen area was not rated, as it was commonly accepted that it did not contribute to drive. One could, however, set a big stays'l from it, off the wind, at least until that loop hole was closed.

The real benefit for mizzens was at the time there were no effective means of self-steering - think of a yawl's mizzen as a large above deck wind vane.
On fishing vessels, a mizzen could be left standing to keep the boat pointed and control motion while the crew was at work. We still, on the occasion keep the mizzen up at anchor the cut down rolling.

Today, as we are obsessed with out and out efficiency and have effective sail handling systems on even the smallest units, the ketch or really any multimasted rig, except on very large boats, is pretty much obsolete, other than for nostalgic or aesthetic reasons, perhaps. Up or downwind, the mizzen is mostly just along for the ride.
I must disagree. We have friends with the same boat. Theirs is rigged as a sloop. Ours as a ketch. Off the wind we are faster using plain white sails. Up wind in light winds they are faster.
One of the most successful cruising boats in recent years are the Amel ketches. They were designed for a couple to sail the world. They made a hell of a lot of them. They are loved by their owners. They still fetch good money as they are still in demand. The rig is easily handled not only because it is a ketch but the sail controls are electric. The options available in heavy weather when short handed are a huge benefit in my opinion.
The real reason why you don't see new ketches is cost. These days cost is everything. New boats are built to a very tight budget.
 

DownWest

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Unless I have missed something, Amels are still being knocked out up in La Rochelle and with a waiting list. There was a new 60 odd ft one, along with the 50.

Here:Home - AMEL
But, they seem to be sloops now. Local friend bought a 54 ketch a few years ago and I was at the launch and had a look round the factory.
 
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Bru

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As a ketch owner, I would say that there are pros and cons

For out and out performance, the sloop will win every time ... but not by as much as some might think

For the cruising couple like us, the ketch has definite advantages. The easily balanced sail plan, the increased reefing options and the smaller and lighter sails for example. Plus the second mast to hang stuff off!

Performance is usually cited as the reason for ketches going out of fashion but the real reason IMO is manufacturing cost. Two masts, two booms, two sets of standing and running rigging inevitably costs more than one set on an otherwise identical boat
 

geem

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Unless I have missed something, Amels are still being knocked out up in La Rochelle and with a waiting list. There was a new 60 odd ft one, along with the 50.

Here:Home - AMEL
But, they seem to be sloops now. Local friend bought a 54 ketch a few years ago and I was at the launch and had a look round the factory.
Have you seen the new Amels? There was a 60 anchored here for a few days in Antigua. We gave it the ugliest boat in the anchorage award. Beam on you can't tell if it's a cat or not. It's super ugly. It may be a great boat but I could not live with something so ugly.
 

Laminar Flow

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I must disagree. We have friends with the same boat. Theirs is rigged as a sloop. Ours as a ketch. Off the wind we are faster using plain white sails. Up wind in light winds they are faster.
One of the most successful cruising boats in recent years are the Amel ketches. They were designed for a couple to sail the world. They made a hell of a lot of them. They are loved by their owners. They still fetch good money as they are still in demand. The rig is easily handled not only because it is a ketch but the sail controls are electric. The options available in heavy weather when short handed are a huge benefit in my opinion.
The real reason why you don't see new ketches is cost. These days cost is everything. New boats are built to a very tight budget.


As Down West said: even Amel seem to have lost a mast as well now. There is no getting around the fact that for pure, unadulterated, cold-hearted efficiency and an impeccable lift/drag ratio a second mast and all it's rigging are not conducive. The range of courses steered in which a ketch or other multi-masted vessel can be superior are fairly narrow. The smallest, Amel, if I recall correctly, was about 40', the Maramus and the Super Maramus (16.5m) were well over 50', at which point one may well start looking at making sails smaller.

The sailors of Hiscock's era swore up and down that if you wanted to go offshore, then you needed a ketch, to keep the sail areas small. As a result, there was all of a sudden a whole crop of sub 30' ketches on the market with 30sqft mizzens, in spite of the fact that good ol' Eric had suggested that 400 sqft in any given sail was when you should be thinking about dividing things up.

I agree that efficiency comes in many flavours. But in a market where folk insist that the only and perfect long distance cruising machine is a Pogo, the ketch is as dead as the Dodo.
 

geem

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As Down West said: even Amel seem to have lost a mast as well now. There is no getting around the fact that for pure, unadulterated, cold-hearted efficiency and an impeccable lift/drag ratio a second mast and all it's rigging are not conducive. The range of courses steered in which a ketch or other multi-masted vessel can be superior are fairly narrow. The smallest, Amel, if I recall correctly, was about 40', the Maramus and the Super Maramus (16.5m) were well over 50', at which point one may well start looking at making sails smaller.

The sailors of Hiscock's era swore up and down that if you wanted to go offshore, then you needed a ketch, to keep the sail areas small. As a result, there was all of a sudden a whole crop of sub 30' ketches on the market with 30sqft mizzens, in spite of the fact that good ol' Eric had suggested that 400 sqft in any given sail was when you should be thinking about dividing things up.

I agree that efficiency comes in many flavours. But in a market where folk insist that the only and perfect long distance cruising machine is a Pogo, the ketch is as dead as the Dodo.
Now that would be an interesting boat! A ketch rigged Pogo?
 

jwfrary

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No-one appears to address the OPs question

The answers are valid for 50' vessels but hardly valid for a yacht 25' long

Why a mizzen when the sails are so small anyway? (on a small vessel)

Jonathan

Good for knocking your pipe out! If there's a boom anyway
 

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I'm awaiting my Bayraider, with its small mizzen. I like the idea of ease of balancing the sails, particularly as I want to experiment with sheet to tiller steering. The comment on the mizzen acting as a wind vane put me in mind of using the mizzen rather than the jib or main for sheet to tiller steering. It's a small sail to work the rudder, but if I used a thin elastic element, it might work. Lots of fun ahead!
 

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Or for a modern user it makes more cockpit space for the crew.
But it forces the cockpit further forward making the cabin smaller . so it has its minus.
As for handling, mentioned earlier, there is an additional set of controls so one might dispute ease if all sails are hoisted and some manouvering suddenly becomes necessary. The sail will tack Ok, but one still has to check nothing gets caught & down wind one has an extra sail to watch for gybes.
On such a small craft, I would suggest that if they wanted to reduce length of spar the more obvious choice would be a gaff rig, or even a gunter rig if possible for the sail area. A gunter rig is reasonably efficientwithin the "multi spar" restrictions.
I have only used it on smaller craft as a teenager so it was a long time ago. But i did like it.
Others may comment to the contrary
 

Daydream believer

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I'm awaiting my Bayraider, with its small mizzen. I like the idea of ease of balancing the sails, particularly as I want to experiment with sheet to tiller steering. The comment on the mizzen acting as a wind vane put me in mind of using the mizzen rather than the jib or main for sheet to tiller steering. It's a small sail to work the rudder, but if I used a thin elastic element, it might work. Lots of fun ahead!
Considering the cost of such a craft you should add a Simrad TP 30. You will soon get fed up poncing about with bits of string & elastic & sailing round in circles.
 

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If you read the Amel history, off that link, the smallest was under 20ft, but they worked up a bit... The bloke locally that bought a 54, had to wait a bit, so he bought a 3O something footer earlier one to keep himself happy while the big one was being built( he had hit a bit of a jackpot on the Irish property market..). Have to say, the 54 was a bit 'functional' in appearance and, as commented, the new ones pretty hideous.

Think I mentioned this before, but we were invited over for an evening, starting at the boat. On arriving, I thought I recognised a guy on board, so asked a nice woman near by if it was indeed Tom Cunliff. Yes, she said it is my husband Tom.... What followed was a truly entertaining evening at a decent local eatery.
 

DownWest

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But it forces the cockpit further forward making the cabin smaller . so it has its minus.
As for handling, mentioned earlier, there is an additional set of controls so one might dispute ease if all sails are hoisted and some manouvering suddenly becomes necessary. The sail will tack Ok, but one still has to check nothing gets caught & down wind one has an extra sail to watch for gybes.
On such a small craft, I would suggest that if they wanted to reduce length of spar the more obvious choice would be a gaff rig, or even a gunter rig if possible for the sail area. A gunter rig is reasonably efficientwithin the "multi spar" restrictions.
I have only used it on smaller craft as a teenager so it was a long time ago. But i did like it.
Others may comment to the contrary
Um, I have a gunter faering, works very well and the spars do fit in the length. The new little cat yawl has the mizzen right at the transom, so no intrusion in the cockpit. But, it then requires a bumkin sticking out for the sheet, about 5ft. This will fold up for close quarters stuff. Looking forward to trying her out.
 
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