Smallest viable boat advice

[dunedin]

Mostly good advice apart from the outboard on a bracket bit. You must have missed the bit where the OP wants to cross the North Channel. And also that you've only observed outboards on brackets on other peoples boats and thought it a good idea, never been subjected to it yourself.

Spot on - for the OPs specified cruising ground an inboard diesel is massively better than an outboard. Hence keeping the Vega may be a good idea.

Suspect Chiara didn't spot the North Channel, Islay etc. A seriously bumpy bit of water with fierce tides.

 

[Daydream believer]

My experience of an inboard diesel is that if they are properly maintained then they are a very reliable piece of kit. I suppose the same goes for outboards . However, I have seen some outboards that are so technical, that when something does go wrong, they are beyond the average user to fix; so involve expensive second party repair. Most diesels just involve filters, airlocks, electrics, injectors, glow plugs, etc & many can overcome those with a bit of research. Fuel problems can be an issue but can be worse on an outboard. Stern glands cause some issues, but sometimes that is just the failure of the owner to stay ahead of maintenance.

A comparable inboard will give better drive in rough water & one does not have the hassle of removal & re fitting etc.
An inboard is better placed inside the boat. Some say that they are noisy. That can be sorted if one wants to deal with it. But if it is a knackered old one then compare it with a knackered old outboard. Same with reliability- like for like. An inboard is better positioned for weight inside the boat
An inboard should not get stollen either.

 

[Chiara’s slave]

Spot on - for the OPs specified cruising ground an inboard diesel is massively better than an outboard. Hence keeping the Vega may be a good idea.

Suspect Chiara didn't spot the North Channel, Islay etc. A seriously bumpy bit of water with fierce tides.

You need the outboard to match the boat. We manage seriously bumpy water, and fierce tides every time we sail, pretty much. I seriously doubt a diesel would do any better.

 

[Tranona]

You need the outboard to match the boat. We manage seriously bumpy water, and fierce tides every time we sail, pretty much. I seriously doubt a diesel would do any better.

I think you are missing the point. It is not about the power but about keeping the propeller in the water. An outboard on a bracket of a small boat is at the end of a pendulum and in any kind of sea spend more time out of the water than in, Add to that control is often difficult because the outboard head is so far away from the cockpit. A 20' light lift keel boat such as the OP is considering is very different from your boat.

 

[wanzap1]

I think you are missing the point. It is not about the power but about keeping the propeller in the water. An outboard on a bracket of a small boat is at the end of a pendulum and in any kind of sea spend more time out of the water than in, Add to that control is often difficult because the outboard head is so far away from the cockpit. A 20' light lift keel boat such as the OP is considering is very different from your boat.

Tranona, I looked at a corribee once, and that was a real concern I had. The way the outboard was arrang d on this particular boat it seemed to sit very far away from the stern and I imagined it to be a total pain. But a guess a better arrangement would have helped. A well it a much better solution.

I think I'll keep my Vega for now!

 

[Daydream believer]

I think I'll keep my Vega for now!

Wise solution in my view

 

[Chiara’s slave]

I think you are missing the point. It is not about the power but about keeping the propeller in the water. An outboard on a bracket of a small boat is at the end of a pendulum and in any kind of sea spend more time out of the water than in, Add to that control is often difficult because the outboard head is so far away from the cockpit. A 20' light lift keel boat such as the OP is considering is very different from your boat.

Which is more that transom mounts are useless than any intrinsic flaw with outboard drive. A well, or other mount further forward is needed.

 

[Blueboatman]

Mostly good advice apart from the outboard on a bracket bit. You must have missed the bit where the OP wants to cross the North Channel. And also that you've only observed outboards on brackets on other peoples boats and thought it a good idea, never been subjected to it yourself.

A little harsh perhaps?
And a lot wrong there Ridgy.

You must have missed the posts I’ve made recently re using a 10hp on a 28 footer and running inlets against a full spring ebb. That was a brilliant set up

Or before that using my 5hp mariner for nigh on 30 hours straight on the back of a Corribee years ago .. that replaced a troublesome inboard daft installation that came with that boat- and a handy outboard bracket on the back. The amazing thing was how easy it was to carry 2 extra 25l jerryjugs strapped to the shroud points. Mind you the noise gets a tad wearisome albeit smoother than an inboard donk.

What’s your experience and thoughts with outboards, good, bad, indifferent?

The one thing people sometimes seem to get wrong with outboard brackets is mounting them a bit too cautiously high, with insufficient leg length and insufficient arc to manoeuvre the tiller arm. If a motor cavitates it is useless, a menace even.

Would you advocate to the OP a decent outboard on a bargain boat or an unknown ageing inboard on a boat offered at a bargain price?

 

[Daydream believer]

Which is more that transom mounts are useless than any intrinsic flaw with outboard drive. A well, or other mount further forward is needed.

Then you may have the issue of dragging the shaft through the water when sailing or lifting the engine clear & fitting a plug in the void. Then storing the engine. If the engine is large it will be too big to lift right out so possibly a large well to allow tilting. But there will be a big hole in the hull. It will take up lots of cockpit space.
I had a Silhouette (circa 1960)with a Seagull Century in a well. That was a total pain in a 17ft 3 inch boat. In the end we mounted it on the transom but starting it & raising & lowering it was awkward ( I was only 12-15 years of age). I actually found that my 40+ did as good a job of driving the boat in flat water.
I would imagine that larger engines would be as much hassle for an adult. Even with electric start etc.( which adds to maintenance)

 

[Blueboatman]

My experience of well mounted outboards echos that.
I find them noisy, inaccessible , smelly and you lose precious space too

 

[ProDave]

My 2 p worth having tried all options.

First boat was a "trailer sailor" we launched and recovered from the slipway just once. That taught us although everyone said it was a "dinghy with a lid" it was a LOT more effort to launch and recover than a real dinghy. If we had to do that, we would not have done much sailing. So we kept that in a small harbour paying for summer only, used the club crane in and out onto it's trailer and brought it home for the winter.

We now have a Hunter Horizon 23 mentioned before in this thread. Very good boat for our needs, standing headroom, galley and heads compartment were our must have items. With a big enough tow vehicle and suitable trailer you could bring that home. We don't have a trailer for it and it gets craned out onto the hard at the harbour for winter.

It strikes me you issue is very expensive harbour / marina fees where you are. You roughly halve those by bringing it home for winter but you do need a suitable trailer.and tow vehicle. So if that is your plan I would not be looking for the smallest viable boat, but the largest boat you and your vehicle are able to tow.

 

[Tranona]

Which is more that transom mounts are useless than any intrinsic flaw with outboard drive. A well, or other mount further forward is needed.

That option is simply not available on most boats, and even then there are still drawbacks such as dealing with exhaust fumes and additional drag if the outboard cannot be lifted out of the water easily.

An outboard is intrinsically sub optimal as auxiliary power on a small cruising yacht than an inboard.

 

[SeasickPete]

If I may pitch on the outboard discussion from an engineers point of view. The 6hp 4 strokes from Tohatsu for instance are very simple single cilinder engines. Very accessible valves for adjusting when needed. Simple carbs that anyone can service and pull start so no relying on batteries. Addionally they are equipped with an external fuel tank that you can easily take with you for refilling. Fuel efficient (1 liter/h) too. Although a bit noisy. Wanting something more quit opt for a 2 cilinder motor which runs a lot smoother.

As for the do it yourself sailor, the greatest benefit is that you can take the motor with you to the service at home in your own workshop instead of performing a boatyoga session around an onboard diesel.

Second greatest benefit, a brand new motor will cost about 1500 euro for a 6 hp ultra long shaft with 12v charging system.

Even een 10, 15 or 20 hp fuel injected version will cost around 2800 euro depending on the model. Try that for an inboard marine diesel, those things (although based on basic industrial engines) cost an arm and a leg brand new.

As said by others, placement is key as well, if access is difficult you can get remote controls (just like an inboard) as having the longest shaft possible to ensure the prop stays well under water. But other then that I don't see any real downsides to an outboard. (For smaller sailboats that is)

You also save the space an inboard needs which is quite significant when you're in the 23 ft range.

Okay, my pitch got a little longer then anticipated, sorry and thanks for reading this all.

Regards,

Pete

 

[Daydream believer]

Throttle controls & reverse when coming into a pontoon & trying to steer at the same time?
What happens when the boat gets pooped in a big sea. Even a well can get flooded.
Torque at the prop compared to an inboard. How does it affect thrust on a displacement hull?

 

[Chiara’s slave]

That option is simply not available on most boats, and even then there are still drawbacks such as dealing with exhaust fumes and additional drag if the outboard cannot be lifted out of the water easily.

An outboard is intrinsically sub optimal as auxiliary power on a small cruising yacht than an inboard.

Maybe so on small lead mines. They are ideal on small multis though, all the lifting and mounting obstacles are easily overcome. My only mono outboard power experience has been on sportsboats or their very slightly more grown up variants. I can’t say the drawbacks you speak of were apparent there either, but then, we only used them for harbour work, when you’ve got a race crew aboard, you sail everywhere.

 

[SeasickPete]

Throttle controls & reverse when coming into a pontoon & trying to steer at the same time?
What happens when the boat gets pooped in a big sea. Even a well can get flooded.
Torque at the prop compared to an inboard. How does it affect thrust on a displacement hull?

With remote controls is should be no different then with an inboard apart from the lack of propwash the rudder. Some people rig their outboard to turn in tandem with the rudder to counter this.

In a big sea the motor could get a wave over it I suppose but I don't think I would want to be out in those conditions on a 23ft boat. If those conditions arise one could choose to lift the motor all the way up whilst sailing. They are pretty well covered by the engine case so any spray would not be a problem.

As for thrust, this is why they have sailboat specific models which sport a prop with more surface area and less pitch. Meaning it probably won't get a dinghy on a plane anymore (less speed) but will push a displacement hull much better. (More thrust)

 

[Baggywrinkle]

Potentially downsizing from an albin Vega. Which is not a big boat at all, and I'm totally happy with it as a vessel - it ticks all my boxes (other than reversing), but I just spend so much money each year for quite limited use.

A great idea is to buy a cheap small boat and road test it, it comes with limited risk. I might try a seawych and keep the Vega for this year at least.

Great commentary

We upgraded to a Vega from the Kingfisher 20. It was a palace by comparison. Loved it (but still no fridge, shower, or running hot water ). Remember lying in the cockpit watching shooting stars on a night sail to Coll - very exciting, no GPS, just paper charts and dead-reckoning. The Vega did extend our cruising ground compared to the Kingfisher - felt like a proper little ship, made for adventures. At 14 I took it through the Crinan canal while my parents manned the locks. Many happy memories. Are you sure you need to downsize? Vegas are gorgeous boats IMO.

 

[Tranona]

Maybe so on small lead mines. They are ideal on small multis though, all the lifting and mounting obstacles are easily overcome. My only mono outboard power experience has been on sportsboats or their very slightly more grown up variants. I can’t say the drawbacks you speak of were apparent there either, but then, we only used them for harbour work, when you’ve got a race crew aboard, you sail everywhere.

The OP was not considering a small multihull.

My first real taste of the pros and cons of outboards on small yachts was when I worked for British Seagull in the late 70s particularly all the hours I did testing our "new" style engines on my 19'Seawych - typical small cruiser with the outboard on a swing down bracket. learned about all the things owners complain about - difficulty of keeping the prop in the water in any kind of seaway, difficulty of operating the controls (although steering could be good close quarter). One memorable occasion coming in through the Haven in Poole with a strong flood and northerly breeze. One minute prop in the air, next minute power head partly submerged. We also had use of a Newbridge Navigator with a well which nicely illustrated the ventilation issue and the huge drag unless you removed the engine under sail.

You are right about little sports boat - on Tuesday I watched our cruiser racer fleet going out for evening races. Many sub 34' boats with little outboards doing just what you say, pottering along nicely in harbour and out to the start line where they are lifted or removed.

BUT this is not the kind of use this thread is about. The owner OP wants a smaller boat with similar capabilities to his Vega and an outboard powered 20 footer or so simply won't cut it.

 

[Baggywrinkle]

The Kingfisher 20+ had an outboard in a well and its party trick was that it could be tilted to bring the prop inboard and then a sliding hatch on the bottom of the hull closed off the engine well to reduce drag. It worked pretty well. I never remember the prop coming out of the water. The added bonus was that the closed off engine well could be used to keep mackerel fresh for dinnertime as it was sealed and full of salt water.

 

[Wansworth]

Sticking the outboard on the flat transome was an easy ,cheap way out for a builder.Therewhereseveral designs where the outboard was mounted at the rear of the cockpit making the rudder aft of the prop and submerging the prop better and being in the cockpit was easy to control…..downside was the opening under the water but this might be solved by aremoveable covering around the shaft