Who said "Gentlemen don't sail to windward"? And why?

[DanTribe]

I once asked an elderly member of my club where he was going for his summer cruise.
He said that it depended which way the wind was blowing when he got to Longsand Head. Westerly and he would head towards Holland, easterly,he would go down channel.
Too often he had spent days beating to get to a set destination, only to have the wind change and he would have to beat home. With his system he could guarantee fair wind in one direction at least.
That seemed very sensible. We often have too rigid itineraries for comfort.

 

[Colvic Watson]

Perhaps I'm a mug then, but I can usually average a sustained 5.1-5.8kts VMG (12.7m LWL) in anything between 14 and 30kts true, a bit less at the upper end if sea conditions are particularly messy or wind is against tide.

Not a mug, just much, much better than all the rest of us.

 

[Birdseye]

I've no idea why I started this thread, but I'll be interested to know what others think.

Friday. Poets day. And if you hadnt posted at 11 am I would have speculated on a stiff G&T or three.

 

[snowleopard]

If gentlemen only sail downwind presumably they have to get a taxi back or does one have a chauffer ;-)

No, the trade winds go all the way round.

 

[Birdseye]

Perhaps I'm a mug then, but I can usually average a sustained 5.1-5.8kts VMG (12.7m LWL) in anything between 14 and 30kts true, a bit less at the upper end if sea conditions are particularly messy or wind is against tide.

I guess this beating thing is horses for courses, but I'd better stop there as I don't want to drift this gentlemanly thread!

So what Dom? The question isnt about what the boat can do - thats a simple issue of money. The question is whether anyone with sense would want to bash to windward other than for an hour or two, maybe racing. My boat is reasonably handy. I race it through the winter but when cruising in the summer I wait for a decent wind direction rather than bash into it for 8 hours. In short I go cruising for pleasure not to prove my endurance.

 

[snowleopard]

So what Dom? The question isnt about what the boat can do - thats a simple issue of money. The question is whether anyone with sense would want to bash to windward other than for an hour or two, maybe racing. My boat is reasonably handy. I race it through the winter but when cruising in the summer I wait for a decent wind direction rather than bash into it for 8 hours. In short I go cruising for pleasure not to prove my endurance.

Quite so. I did a passage from Bermuda to Horta. It was marked by alternating periods of motorsailing into light winds and fast reaching but the last couple of hours into port was a beat into a fresh wind. It was exhilarating but we all commented afterwards that we were glad it wasn't like that all the way. Sailing to windward is hard, especially down below or in an unprotected cockpit and for most of us the pleasure soon gets lost in the discomfort.

 

[KellysEye]

>No, the trade winds go all the way round.

Not always the Pacific has a wind reversal subject to whether El Nina or El Nino is blowing.

 

[dancrane]

...a beat into a fresh wind...exhilarating but we all commented afterwards that we were glad it wasn't like that all the way. Sailing to windward is hard, especially down below or in an unprotected cockpit and for most of us the pleasure soon gets lost in the discomfort.

That must be a very good basis on which to clarify the daftness of the original saying...

...determined windward work is pretty tough - so p'raps we can more accurately say that skippers who are sensitive towards their crews, won't sail to windward for too long.

Hardly the same as damning anyone who routinely has to beat a bit, as sailing in a less-than-gentlemanly way!

Reminds me of the often-heard, almost invariably misused and misunderstood saying, "the exception which proves the rule". It's unfortunate that we slip so easily and lazily into ways of speaking which don't clearly sum up what we want to convey, whilst projecting preposterous falsehoods along the way.

 

[capnsensible]

That must be a very good basis on which to clarify the daftness of the original saying...

...determined windward work is pretty tough - so p'raps we can more accurately say that skippers who are sensitive towards their crews, won't sail to windward for too long.

Hardly the same as damning anyone who routinely has to beat a bit, as sailing in a less-than-gentlemanly way!

Reminds me of the often-heard, almost invariably misused and misunderstood saying, "the exception which proves the rule". It's unfortunate that we slip so easily and lazily into ways of speaking which don't clearly sum up what we want to convey, whilst projecting preposterous falsehoods along the way.

Its a bit of lighthearted irony. Not worth getting knickers in a knot over it.

Dunno what all the fuss about going to windward is anyway. If you want to get somewhere quick, get a plane.

 

[dom]

The question is whether anyone with sense would want to bash to windward other than for an hour or two, maybe racing. ...In short I go cruising for pleasure not to prove my endurance.

I wonder why boats which sail fast to windward offend the sensibilities of some. Yet few raise an eyebrow at the sight of a bilge keeler out in a shallow harbour; both boats are simply doing what they are designed to do.

There are many people, neither retired nor gentlemen of leisure, who love sailing but find it hard to get away for more than a w/e plus Friday. Thousands of Solent sailors fit this category. Faced with a SW prevailing wind, any trip in a direction from St Vaast to Dartmoth usually requires a chunk of close hauled sailing; just exiting the Western Solent requires windward work.

Like the bilge keeler these sailors naturally gravitate towards boats designed to fulfil this function, they may for example choose an Xc45 over say a Southerly. Some of them spend a good bit of money on sails, others scrounge the discards in Cowes. Many will possess sail select chart like North’s “Sailect” and have the necessary gear to handily switch multiple headsails.

These folk are not unaware that as the waves build it becomes progressively more comfortable to sail off the wind and that is always wet on deck above 20kts TWS. And of course one must be careful moving around down below in a bumpy sea.

Most of these people are perfectly happy to sail like this for one day; they can look forward to the sleigh ride home the next! And it’s not only the fast boats; each summer w/e all sorts of UK vessels tip up in Alderney, having bashed into headwinds all the way. Most wear big smiles on their faces. I’ve no idea why it winds some peeps up so much.

 

[duncan99210]

Sailing to windward in moderate winds is fun, especially when you don't have deadlines to meet. Often, we will sail for a day or more into the wind, heading for somewhere, happy to drop the hook as dark falls before heading on the next day. We'll sail many more miles but will have fun doing so: there's little to beat being in control of a balanced yacht as it comes alive under sail.

However, we've learnt the hard way that, on occasions, there is little point in trying to make progress into a strong head wind. Stop somewhere safe and let it blow itself out before pitting boat and crew into a pointless exercise in sail destruction and discomfort.

As others have said, the saying almost certainly originated with the 'gentlemen's yachts' of the Victorian era where, unless they were racing, the general idea was to keep the deck level to avoid spilling the tipple.

 

[Koeketiene]

It's always struck me as a meaningless phrase spouted, more often than not by the sort of seasoned pub bores whose boats never leave their moorings but claim expertise in every aspect of sailing (aside from sailing to windward).

:encouragement:

 

[johnalison]

I must be getting a bit thick because I always thought it was supposed to be a joke, both against salty seamen who will press on regardless, and against the popular image of a gentleman as being happier in tweeds propping up a bar somewhere. In many instances, this allows those of us with fantasies about being gentlemen to make fun of ourselves.

 

[Colvic Watson]

I wonder why boats which sail fast to windward offend the sensibilities of some.

Lighten up Dom, no one despises boats that sail well to windward, any more than you despise boats that don't;
"gentlemen don't sail to windward" is just a fun little aphorism, I don't think it was coined to offend you personally.

 

[dom]

"gentlemen don't sail to windward" is just a fun little aphorism, I don't think it was coined to offend you personally.

Oops, and there was me thinking that sailing upwind meant using "The Gents" was the closest I could get to being a gentleman!

Seriously though, I was simply responding to the posters accusing those who have sailed close-hauled across the North Sea in a F5/7 of being liars - perhaps some are, but most will have just figured how to set their boat up correctly and how to live and have fun at a somewhat unusual angle

 

[Searush]

Sailing to windward in moderate winds is fun, especially when you don't have deadlines to meet. Often, we will sail for a day or more into the wind, heading for somewhere, happy to drop the hook as dark falls before heading on the next day. We'll sail many more miles but will have fun doing so: there's little to beat being in control of a balanced yacht as it comes alive under sail.

However, we've learnt the hard way that, on occasions, there is little point in trying to make progress into a strong head wind. Stop somewhere safe and let it blow itself out before pitting boat and crew into a pointless exercise in sail destruction and discomfort.

As others have said, the saying almost certainly originated with the 'gentlemen's yachts' of the Victorian era where, unless they were racing, the general idea was to keep the deck level to avoid spilling the tipple.

Such boats were often "plank on edge" style - ie narrow, deep, long keeled with long overhangs & low freeboard. They were as fast as possible while dodging the racing rules of the day, but were mercilessly wet at a time when "oilies" were almost exactly that, canvas jackets oiled, tarred or waxed to "waterproof" them (after a fashion anyway). If you think beating to windward with a modern, beamy, high freeboard boat with deep cockpit, sprayhood, Ocean going waterproofs and Ebersplutter heater is uncomfortable - you would not like trying it in a Victorian yacht.

 

[lw395]

Such boats were often "plank on edge" style - ie narrow, deep, long keeled with long overhangs & low freeboard. They were as fast as possible while dodging the racing rules of the day, but were mercilessly wet at a time when "oilies" were almost exactly that, canvas jackets oiled, tarred or waxed to "waterproof" them (after a fashion anyway). If you think beating to windward with a modern, beamy, high freeboard boat with deep cockpit, sprayhood, Ocean going waterproofs and Ebersplutter heater is uncomfortable - you would not like trying it in a Victorian yacht.

Although the old boat might have a nicer motion in some conditions?

As ever, it depends also on the depth of the gentleman's pockets, some of those big old yachts could carve effortlessly through seas, whereas a smaller boat would be very wet indeed.
Plus ca change?

I'm not aware of many races in the UK pre-war being 'downwid only' affairs?
But such races have a long history in the US?

 

[JumbleDuck]

Too often he had spent days beating to get to a set destination, only to have the wind change and he would have to beat home. With his system he could guarantee fair wind in one direction at least.
That seemed very sensible. We often have too rigid itineraries for comfort.

I agree. My summer cruise direction depends on which way the wind is blowing on the first day. Last year it was easterly and stayed easterly so we went to Iona, Coll and Skye. This year it was north westerly so we went to the Isle of Man. It's a sailing holiday, not a timetable to be followed.

 

[JumbleDuck]

I wonder why boats which sail fast to windward offend the sensibilities of some. Yet few raise an eyebrow at the sight of a bilge keeler out in a shallow harbour; both boats are simply doing what they are designed to do.

There are many people, neither retired nor gentlemen of leisure, who love sailing but find it hard to get away for more than a w/e plus Friday. Thousands of Solent sailors fit this category. Faced with a SW prevailing wind, any trip in a direction from St Vaast to Dartmoth usually requires a chunk of close hauled sailing; just exiting the Western Solent requires windward work.

Like the bilge keeler these sailors naturally gravitate towards boats designed to fulfil this function, they may for example choose an Xc45 over say a Southerly. Some of them spend a good bit of money on sails, others scrounge the discards in Cowes. Many will possess sail select chart like North’s “Sailect” and have the necessary gear to handily switch multiple headsails.

These folk are not unaware that as the waves build it becomes progressively more comfortable to sail off the wind and that is always wet on deck above 20kts TWS. And of course one must be careful moving around down below in a bumpy sea.

Most of these people are perfectly happy to sail like this for one day; they can look forward to the sleigh ride home the next! And it’s not only the fast boats; each summer w/e all sorts of UK vessels tip up in Alderney, having bashed into headwinds all the way. Most wear big smiles on their faces. I’ve no idea why it winds some peeps up so much.

I don't see anything there which contradicts the idea that you can spend money on getting a boat to go well to windward but that for many people it's not much fun to do so for extended periods. A quick beat at the end of a weekend in the Solent doesn't really count.

 

[dom]

I don't see anything there which contradicts the idea that you can spend money on getting a boat to go well to windward but that for many people it's not much fun to do so for extended periods. A quick beat at the end of a weekend in the Solent doesn't really count.

It doesn't, it supports it; and consequently contradicts the contention that those that claim to do it are de facto liars. Horses for courses, that's all