dancrane
Well-known member
How well does the massive Maltese Falcon sail, upwind?
Who said "Gentlemen don't sail to windward"? And why?
- Thread starter dancrane
- Start date
lw395
Well-known member
Fixed wings generally fail on 1.
2. Sails need twist, less so as the boat goes faster, so wings tend to work badly in slow craft like monohull yachts and dinghies.
3. A soft sail has a big advantage in that it changes shape when it is tacked. This means a much greater camber can be used, which is good at low speed and offwind. Not an issue with foiling cats etc, as they only need to work close hauled and fast.
Of course there is a world of difference between a modern Bermudan 'fabric' sail and the triangle of cloth on many yachts.
Masts that bend to accommodate gusts. Battens with carefully controlled bend characteristics and lots of roach.
The top batten in many dinghy rigs is almost a gaff...
And of course some rigs, like moths, use a double luff or sock around the mast, so the wing has thickness in its front part.
In boatlengths per second, they are faster than anything wing rigged?
Colvic Watson
Well-known member
A wingsail on a Colvic Watson? I reckon me and Dan could sort that one out! The need for volume makers to come up with a USP may get the wingsail introduced, then there's the costs, not just thousands cheaper to make the boat but cheaper and easier for the charter companies to maintain and fewer breakages. It'll make a change from the competition to make boats with the fattest bum and the flatest bow sections.
dom
Well-known member
Interesting. My knowledge on this is as thin as my sail; but a friend of mine who engages in research at the Southampton Wolfson Marine and Aerodynamics Unit mentioned those points. The calcs are pretty opaque to the untrained mind like mine, but the comparable polars for wing tip versus soft sails seem to suggest that wing tips will soon win hands down, even on slower boats and on all points of sailing. That said, there seems to be quite a big emphasis on fancy control systems that that make B&G's finest autopilot look like the enigma machine.
I'm sure what you say is right, but I'd watch this space
AndrewfromFal
Active member
Has done quite well at Bucket regattas if I recall correctly, and the one time they lined up against Mirabella V, their the Falcon's VMG was a bit better. Interestingly there was an Interview with some of the leading lights at Doyle, who provided Maltese Falcon's sail wardrobe and they developed something as a result of their work on the Falcon which made a significant improvement in efficiency. - Sadly for reasons to do with Patents and such (and Possibly Tom Perkins' ego), this never made it onto the boat.
I do believe that the rather secretive 85 metre Oceanco/Vitters square rigger project is going to have this technology.
lw395
Well-known member
The problem might well be making the 'fancy control systems' light enough and within racing rules.Interesting. My knowledge on this is as thin as my sail; but a friend of mine who engages in research at the Southampton Wolfson Marine and Aerodynamics Unit mentioned those points. The calcs are pretty opaque to the untrained mind like mine, but the comparable polars for wing tip versus soft sails seem to suggest that wing tips will soon win hands down, even on slower boats and on all points of sailing. That said, there seems to be quite a big emphasis on fancy control systems that that make B&G's finest autopilot look like the enigma machine.
I'm sure what you say is right, but I'd watch this space
I expect that's part of why wing rigs only dominate in big boats with few rules?
Of course racing is not everything.
People have been saying wing masts are the way forwards since Bob Fisher used to race C class cats.
I have a book about that, it shows such a boat being towed by a Mk3 Ford Zodiac.
Meanwhile, kitesurfers have gone the other way, dispensing with spars completely, and they seem a bit quick!
dom
Well-known member
Definitely as play stands at the moment, I think that some of the latest airfoils under test are inherently unstable and will consequently only work in fly-by-wire installations alongside formidably complex control systems. At some future point, if it all works out, a helmsman could be reduced to just punching tactical instructions into a keyboard. Even here AI (artificial intelligence) could come into the equation, where some lifestyle robotic companies in the US are making good progress.
To be honest though I doubt some if this fancy stuff will ever get off the drawing board, it would ruin the excitement of AC racing and I can't see who else would be willing/able to spend the dosh to develop it.
ronsurf
Well-known member
I still think it's quite remarkable to sail up wind at any degree. Going forwards against the wind which is pushing you... er... backwards.
dancrane
Well-known member
Well said! The physics of liquid being slippy enough to float on and move through, whilst being dense enough to resist lateral thrust obtained from the moving air above, and the option to zig and zag against that breeze without ending up far downwind like a paper bag...
...to my mind, the boat's ability to sail upwind is what makes sailing so great. If sailing anywhere required waiting for a wind that was going that way, I'd be reluctant to use it for fear of how long it might be before another wind might obligingly blow me home.
Fine, to prefer a reach or run, but to actually avoid going upwind (and the freedom which doing so permits) wouldn't appeal to me.
Thanks to AndrewfromFal for his Maltese Falcon info.
snowleopard
Active member
Went to a talk by navigation guru Stokey Woodall before the ARC. I treasure his throwaway remark 'Nothing goes to windward like a 747'.
lw395
Well-known member
I'm amazed that the last Americas Cup was such a great event to watch.
I think they will be very lucky to repeat that.
Perhaps one day the serious money in development might be in saving fuel in ships?
People have dabbled with this before, but it seems to be cheaper just to build bigger ships...
snowleopard
Active member
Spills the gin, old boy. What?
dom
Well-known member
For sure big tankers and container ships work well on certain routes, but there are countless modem ships out there where weight and installation space are limited. To tap this market Rolls Royce recently launched a new family of high-efficiency medium speed reciprocating engines based upon the belief that this segment is going to substantially expand in the future. Same goes for diesel-electric. Apparently customers worry less and less about the fact that these engines are much fussier with respect to fuel composition and quality than their slow speed counterparts which can tolerate variable grade bunker.
The shipping sector always moves in slow-motion, but the positiveness bordering on exuberance of marine veterans who lead the OEM Marine Divisions of R-R, ABB, Mitsubishi, Siemens, Hyundai, etc would suggest that the marine industry is on the cusp of a technological revolution. A slow motion one of course!
Wansworth
Well-known member
Gentlemen didn't sail to windward, their crews did.In the last days before they replaced the trots in Cowes for a marina I as hailed by two such gentlemen and implored to row them out to their yaaaaaaaacht, old boy, completely pissed but maintaining form and etiquette..... including a tip.I just happened to be rowing by!
ronsurf
Well-known member
Is this the technological revolution you're thinking of?
http://s498.photobucket.com/user/lucy1923/media/sky_sails.jpg.html
NormanS
Well-known member
I'm a very latecomer to this long thread, but anyway, my understanding is that the original quote was actually, "Gentlemen don't BEAT to windward". Sailing to windward could just be a close reach on one tack, something which gives good exhilarating sailing, and which I would expect, we all enjoy. Beating, in the meaning with regard to sailing, implies tacking back and forward in a relatively inefficient way of getting from "A" to "B". As a cruising yachtsman, I enjoy sailing to windward, but if at all possible, I avoid beating.
Does this make me a gentleman?
Does this make me a gentleman?
lw395
Well-known member
No, I think that makes you a passage sailor rather than a round the cans racer?
Of course in passage sailing, you can sometimes avoid beating by having a boat able to point high, laying the headland in one tack...
dancrane
Well-known member
Nice thought Norman, but therein lies the irritation of the phrase, to my mind. (Not very irritating...as I said at the start, this is a very lazy off-season thought.
)I'm sure it wasn't "beat", but "go" to windward...hence it damns anyone who regards their sails as being for anything other than propelling the boat in the direction the wind blows.
Which implies that taking the business of sailing any more seriously than listlessly bending whichever way nature is pushing, is somehow not for gentlemen.
But at one time, kings and princes even had underlings to wipe their bottoms, so perhaps such a view likens gentility it to incapable infirmity?
At any rate, it seems to suggest that anyone with a taste for privilege or a knowledge of how to behave, won't lower himself to any kind of hard toil, for any reason or reward...
...and as a gentleman who really enjoys the reward of cycling uphill, and of getting a boat to the place I want to be, rather than the place it would have ended up if unattended, I say this phrase is utter balls...so I wonder why we persist in repeating it? Maybe next time it crosses our minds, we should let it keep going, rather than say it or type it?
That's enough out of me. Good morning.
JumbleDuck
Well-known member
No he didn't. "That claim" was
It doesn't, it supports it; and consequently contradicts the contention that those that claim to do it are de facto liars. Horses for courses, that's all
and Mr Wilson's post actually said
which only says that in his opinion some people who claim to have beaten long distances to windward have actually just been sailing close hauled, not that all people who claim to have enjoyed beating to windward are liars. Quite different.
Jamesuk
Active member
It is a retired thing. I hate sailing to windward - usually because the engine is on to make it less of a chore.