Which Yacht

[Nickhitch]

Hello everybody this is our first post on this forum and we are hoping you guys can help us with our decision on which boat to get.

We are very new to sailing and will be taking the day skipper practical during the first week in April. We have already started looking at different yacht designs in view to purchase one in the summer. We will be sailing in the Bristol Channel and are looking for a twin keel yacht between £10000 and £17000 depending on our finances. Because of our lack of experience we want a boat that is primarily a good solid cruiser that will look after us but will be capable of decent performance for passage times and for club racing. Although the club racing will be strictly for fun. We just don’t want to come last all the time /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif
Basically a yacht that will grow with us so that we don’t feel the need to look for something else in a couple of year’s time.

Looking at reviews and the figures, sail area/displacement ratio, comfort ratio and so on, size 25-30 feet and price we’ve narrowed it down to these:

Cobra 850 and 750
Westerly Griffon
Mirage 28 MK2
Hunter Horizon 26
Mirage 26
Westerly Centaur


Now for the questions
Does anyone have any views on these boats, cruising/performance?
I could not help but notice how light the Horizon 26 is compared to the others should I be concerned about this considering the cruising aspect of are needs compared to the club racing?
Why is the Westerly Centaur so expensive compared to the other designs considering its age and how many of them are up for sale compared to the others I have seen and are they supposed to be quite slow?
I read somewhere that the Mirage 28 Mk1 had poor performance in light winds and they made changes, how much was the improvement in the Mk2’s?
Are there any more yachts I’ve missed and should take a look at?
And finally, which one do you think will should we go for /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif?


A lot of questions I know but I am hoping you will be able to put our mind at rest on some of them.

Cheers
Nick and Miranda

 

[moondancer]

If you want decent performance then go for the Hunter, it would also make a good cruising boat. The only others, IMHO, on the list that would offer reasonable performance would be the Griffon followed by the Centaur.

 

[herdman]

I used to own a griffon and was v impressed - very safe - and faster than the centaur (designed by more performance oriented ed dubois). Centaur a bit of a plodder - but the Griffon will be more expensive - may just be able to afford a MK2. Griffon also has quite a good ballast ratio (c 42%??) so will be more sturdy than than the Hunter - but maybe not quite as fast in low breeze. Westerly's always seem a bit expensive vs many competitors - but remember they hold their value (your "cost" is not just your purchase price but your selling price too!). No strong views on Mirage or Cobra.

 

[Bajansailor]

Re carrying out further research, have a look at http://www.yachtsnet.co.uk/archives.htm
A few good reviews and photos here of boats in your price range.

As noted above, the Hunter Horizon 26 and the Griffon will sail better than the Centaur or eg a Colvic 26. All are fine vessels if they have been well looked after.

I wouldnt say that Centaurs are 'expensive' - they were going for the same asking prices 12 - 15 years ago...... one reason why there are always quite a few on the market is because Westerlys built almost 3,000 (I think) of them - shows that they were, and are, very popular.

Mirage 28's are also 'good' boats if well looked after - twin keels might be a bit slower than fins in all types of boat, but twins have so many advantages over fins, especially where you are.
(the advantages of twin vs fin have been debated extensively elsewhere on this forum).

Re which one you should go for - you have to make that decision yourself. It should be a boat that jumps out and grabs you - if she does that, then investigate further.....

For further research, have a look at www.yachtworld.com and www.boatshed.com - eg Boatshed have a category for boats under 27', and always have lots on their books.
And with both brokers you can do a more specialised search to narrow down your choices.

 

[PIGLETSDREAM]

Trapper 500/501 Loads of space quite fast and a wonderful safe motion no matter what the weather. There is a very active `trapper web site and generally a few different ones on the market. Available in Bilge and Fin Keel. Biased having owned a Fin keel for many years

 

[FullCircle]

All of the boats 'will look after you'. Its actually you that looks after you. In the weather you will even consider going out in, they will all work.
Cruising is not racing, and the addition of all the cruising kit will preclude any decent results in racing, unless you are assiduous in disposing of everything not needed. Then you need a good handicap and a better set of sails. Keep the racing to the Family Class in regattas, thats just fun, and be prepared to come last, as pot hunting gits bring thier racing boats into your class and call them cruisers. They are just gits.
In general also, twin keels do hamper the performance envelope somewhat. Hunter are good as mentioned above, and the Sadler 26 works well.

You could also look at lift keels, which means things like the Seal 26 and 28 are there and also the Kelt 850 and Stag 28. Quite a few French boats like the Beneteau First 25/26 also fall in there.

There is no known boat you can buy as a first boat that you will not consider selling within the first 2 seasons for something better or different.....

Welcome to the forum, its a nice place sometimes

 

[doug748]

If I were looking for a boat in this class I would go for the Sadler 26 or the Griffon. They sail well and sell well. If you are unsure, just bag the best value. When I bought my first serious cruising boat I was looking for a bilge keel family cruiser with good accommodation; I saw a real bargain, a long, deep keel Folkboat derivative, fit only for coal miners below decks. I loved that boat and it forged my opinions on sailing and boats. However, the point is, if I had hated it I could have sold it sharpish, at a profit.

 

[moondancer]

absolutely - should be banned!!

 

[dickh]

You should also consider the Jaguar 27 fin keel. I've sold mine last year when I upgraded to a larger boat. Lots around, roomy cockpit and interior, sail very well - I regularly used to beat my friend in his contessa 28. Prices range from 11k to 14k. You should get a good one well fitted out for about 13k. Don'y forget that the the askiong price is just that - ALWAYS offer about 15-20% less and then negotiate. Thats how I got my present boat, put in a silly offer - 35% less than asking and settled on 30% less. Then I had to sell the J27 quickly!
Also look on Boats & Outboards website - where I sold mine.

 

[ajt]

I used to own a Griffon (Fin Keel) and it proved to be a very capable boat, the fin is quicker than the bilge and points a bit better. Never sailed the other boats on your list but they all seem good choices. I think you will find when you buy a boat you will always find things that you would like to change or improve and therefore you will change the boat at some point as there is no such thing as a perfect boat, no matter how much you have to spend!
Saying that I had as much fun, if not more with my first little boat than my current one.

welcome to the forum and happy hunting!

 

[CPD]

There is a very good reasson why the Centaur was, and remains, the biggest selling single design ever (I think !). It isnt the fastest boat in the stable, however, it DOES sail upwind, it is incredibly strong, and there is a good market. There is also an excellent Westerly forum where, for nowt, you can be taught, by some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet. I may be biased, but I also speak from something which you at the moment, like I didnt at the time have, experience. A brilliant first boat /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[jwilson]

For the Bristol Channel you want iron bige keels - not GRP keels with encasulated ballast. Iron keels are much better for some of the stony-bottomed harbours - eg Lynmouth, Porlock, Clovelly.

A Griffon is a good boat, but Centaurs aren't that bad sailing performance. Hunters and Sadlers are probably the best performance bilge-keelers.

 

[donm]

Probably the most important point is external ballast keels, as there are very few Marinas in the Bristol Channel, and if you wish to cruise you will need to be able to dry out on a regular basis and not risk damage to encapsulation.
For performance I would go for a Sadler or Trapper (both iron bilge keels) - probably a Trapper as I owned one of the first bilge keel 500s and they tend to be better value. Always performed well and had decent accomodation.

Hope to see you out there. Let us all know when and what you buy

 

[purplerobbie]

[ QUOTE ]
There is a very good reasson why the Centaur was, and remains, the biggest selling single design ever (I think !). It isnt the fastest boat in the stable, however, it DOES sail upwind, it is incredibly strong, and there is a good market. There is also an excellent Westerly forum where, for nowt, you can be taught, by some of the most knowledgeable people on the planet. I may be biased, but I also speak from something which you at the moment, like I didnt at the time have, experience. A brilliant first boat /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

[/ QUOTE ]

There was more Albin Vega's made (3500 ish) They sail better than the Centaur (in any direction) and there is a great owners assocation
http://www.albinvega.co.uk
An Albin Vega held the fastest crossing of the atlantic for a while. So they do well in racing

Quite a few have circumnavigated here is one on its way now
http://www.runtjorden.com/eng_index.php

Well within your budget they go from £7500 to £15000

If you are looking for a good solid seaboat look at the Vega
The bad points are it dosent fit your spec as they have a long fin keel and there is only 5ft 9in headroom (ish)
Rob

 

[Goldie]

Welcome aboard! My choice would be the Griffon but most of those you've listed would do the job I'm sure. have you sought out some 'secondhand reviews' on likely contenders? PBO and Sailing Today have covered a few of the above in recent years. I'd agree with the suggestion to look at the Trapper 500/501 but would also add the Sabre and the Tomahawk to the list. On the other hand, my (distant) recollection of the Hunter Horizon was that it was a super boat in lighter conditions, but very tender and quickly ran out of reefs above about F4/5. Don't be seduced by the volume of a Leisure 27 for the same reason. I think some of the Cobras were home completed so standards will vary.

Whatever you go for, don't be put off by cosmetics if the basics are there. For example, a boat needing new sails/upholstery/cooker (or whatever) but with a recent engine will work out a lot cheaper in the long run than a bright shiny boat with a 30 year old engine on its last legs!

Good luck in your search.

 

[johnphilip]

Hunter Yachts prided themselves on making twin keels with good hydrodynamic design and hence performance better than most. Years ago we sailed the Bristol channel from Lydney and keeping a boat there realised the need for twin keels, but a boat that still sails well.
Lighter displacement boats need not make for less seaworthiness. A boat with a good sailing performance is in many ways safer. It will get you home without relying on the engine. It is a lot more fun to sail than a caravan with high topsides and enormous accommodation for her length.Boats of this shape don't go well to windward. Even when not racing few of us like to be left way behind by other boats. Some may boast that they don't need to reef their boats until it is blowing force5 .This translates into being undersailed most of the time, and excessive use of the engine.
Prioritise good hull and keel shape and the sailing is great.