Which sailboat?

[Earthlyone]

Good evening all,

I am just looking for my first sailboat & have decided I am going to Liveaboard down in Cornwall. I really need some advice on which boats would be best.

My situation…
I will be living alone on the boat full time, no pets, no kids, but I will have at least 2 quests occasionally for dinner, nights away, sailing weekends Etc.
I will be sailing alone a lot so would like a boat set up for single-handed sailing.
I would like to visit places up river around the south west coast.
I will eventually want to sail to Scotland to visit parents.
I would like ease of sailing, comfort & also stability.

Any suggestions on things like…
Keel - Bilge/Twin?
Length of boat - 28ft - 36ft?
Sails/Rig - Sloop?

or please suggest exact boats you think will be suitable.
I will be buying in the UK.

Thank you in advance for any help & advice.
Kind regards
Earthlyone

 

[Fr J Hackett]

Budget

 

[Earthlyone]

Budget

Apologies… £20,000

 

[Tranona]

The choice of boat is the least of your worries. Living on a coastal sailing boat in the UK is a massive challenge. The first is to find a location where you can actually do it. Most marinas are out of bounds on the basis of cost or particularly now because they will not allow liveaboards. While it is possible to spend maybe 7 or 8 months of the year moving from place to place and anchoring with occasional visits to marinas, such an existence is usually incompatible with a social or working life. Winter months - October to March are a real challenge.

You need to confront these realities and how you are going to deal with them before you even think about choosing a boat. However, some principles. Anything less than 28' is camping surrounded by water. 28-32' is a small caravan surrounded by water. 35' gets to some semblance of living in a bedsit on land. Based on my experience of a year living on a 26' in my younger days and 37' as a longstay holiday boat in later years.

As to the boat, any mainstream cruising boat will do the sailing bit and no problem setting up for single handing. Clearly some designs are better on the accommodation side, but assuming you are buying at the lower end of the price range the main consideration is condition rather than the specific design. However just to give you an idea, models from the Westerly and Moody ranges in the 30-33' size make good basic sailing liveaboards. Longbows are popular at the bottom end and a good Moody 33 would be luxury at the top end. Such boats are available well under £20k after upgrading but just be aware that they are 40 years old and any work required is at 2022 prices - not 1980!

Sorry if this sounds negative, but it is a reflection of reality. Living on a boat is a marginal activity in every sense and there are very few people who actually make a success of it - many try, but very quickly recognise that it is really impractical.

 

[Earthlyone]

The choice of boat is the least of your worries. Living on a coastal sailing boat in the UK is a massive challenge. The first is to find a location where you can actually do it. Most marinas are out of bounds on the basis of cost or particularly now because they will not allow liveaboards. While it is possible to spend maybe 7 or 8 months of the year moving from place to place and anchoring with occasional visits to marinas, such an existence is usually incompatible with a social or working life. Winter months - October to March are a real challenge.

You need to confront these realities and how you are going to deal with them before you even think about choosing a boat. However, some principles. Anything less than 28' is camping surrounded by water. 28-32' is a small caravan surrounded by water. 35' gets to some semblance of living in a bedsit on land. Based on my experience of a year living on a 26' in my younger days and 37' as a longstay holiday boat in later years.

As to the boat, any mainstream cruising boat will do the sailing bit and no problem setting up for single handing. Clearly some designs are better on the accommodation side, but assuming you are buying at the lower end of the price range the main consideration is condition rather than the specific design. However just to give you an idea, models from the Westerly and Moody ranges in the 30-33' size make good basic sailing liveaboards. Longbows are popular at the bottom end and a good Moody 33 would be luxury at the top end. Such boats are available well under £20k after upgrading but just be aware that they are 40 years old and any work required is at 2022 prices - not 1980!

Sorry if this sounds negative, but it is a reflection of reality. Living on a boat is a marginal activity in every sense and there are very few people who actually make a success of it - many try, but very quickly recognise that it is really impractical.

All advice is very welcome, thank you so much for taking the time.

I have already got somewhere to moor the boat permanently so that’s not an issue for me.
The boats you have mentioned are certainly some I have been looking at, especially the Moody. In all honesty, if the boat was right I could go to 30k. I don’t know what 1980 prices were like, I wasn’t even born then ?

Cheers

 

[Kelpie]

Tranona's summary is accurate.
The choice of boat is not as big a part of the puzzle as you might think. Like deciding to train as a plumber and getting hung up on which van to buy.

To try to answer your question, I'm going to assume that your occasional guests are a couple, in which case you probably want two separate cabins, one aft and one up front. You'd be best to look above 30ft to make it comfortable but you could go smaller if your budget is really tight.

The design choices you mention have many pros and cons. As general advice, try to avoid anything too unusual- you want to be buying the Ford Mondeo of the yacht world, not some one-off. Anything by the main builders (Bavaria, Beneteau, Dufour, GibSea, HR, Hanse, Hunter, Jeanneau, Malo, Moody, Najad, Sadler, Westerly etc etc) is likely going to do the job so long as you avoid overtly racy designs.

 

[Earthlyone]

Tranona's summary is accurate.
The choice of boat is not as big a part of the puzzle as you might think. Like deciding to train as a plumber and getting hung up on which van to buy.

To try to answer your question, I'm going to assume that your occasional guests are a couple, in which case you probably want two separate cabins, one aft and one up front. You'd be best to look above 30ft to make it comfortable but you could go smaller if your budget is really tight.

The design choices you mention have many pros and cons. As general advice, try to avoid anything too unusual- you want to be buying the Ford Mondeo of the yacht world, not some one-off. Anything by the main builders (Bavaria, Beneteau, Dufour, GibSea, HR, Hanse, Hunter, Jeanneau, Malo, Moody, Najad, Sadler, Westerly etc etc) is likely going to do the job so long as you avoid overtly racy designs.

Thank you ?
I am getting a good understanding of what you all are saying. This is extremely helpful.
I was going to avoid anything racy as it really isn’t what I intend on doing. I will literally be cruising likes it’s a lazy Sunday afternoon each time I go out.
Yes, a couple, my brother & his girlfriend will visit & sail with me at times so I would certainly like enough space for them to stay.
Comfort, stability & ease of sailing is what I’m going for.
I won’t be working so I intend to join a local sailing club & perhaps do some volunteering. This seems like a good way to become part of the community & enjoy the social aspect.
I really can’t thank you all enough for your very kind help. Please feel to drop in with any more ideas/advice, I am always happy to receive guidance from those in the know!
Warmest wishes
Leigh

 

[sailaboutvic]

Just in the few reply you got I think you probably got enough to be going on with ,
all I say is after coming back from many years as a full time liveaboard/cruiser to Northern Europe waters I be getting of my ship In mid Oct and finding somewhere warn and not damp to live in .
I admire thos who live over winter in a small boat in the UK ,
the Med winter in a well equipped and big boat with temperature dropping to 3 c was enough for us.

 

[Tranona]

All advice is very welcome, thank you so much for taking the time.

I have already got somewhere to moor the boat permanently so that’s not an issue for me.
The boats you have mentioned are certainly some I have been looking at, especially the Moody. In all honesty, if the boat was right I could go to 30k. I don’t know what 1980 prices were like, I wasn’t even born then ?

Cheers

OK. A budget of £30k is a good start. The reason for the comment about 1980s prices is that you will be looking at boats from that period that are for sale at around 10% of their replacement cost in 2022 prices. The purchase price is just the entry fee to a lifetime of expenditure and replacements, particularly if you try to live full time on the boat. Boats were never designed for living on full time so you need to learn to work within the constraints so it is useful to set out some basic criteria. Be aware that it is highly unlikely that you will buy a fully functioning liveaboard boat in perfect condition in this price range so realistically you need to look for one that has all the expensive bits in good nick. Hull (obviously) engine, sails, rigging, furnishings and domestic equipment, cooker, heating if possible, toilet, water and electrical systems and if you intend sailing a lot decent electronic nav gear. To put this in perspective replacement engine £8-10k, sails £2.5k, rigging same, cooker £600, re-upholster £2k+. These are real prices - I am refitting a boat that might be on your list and I paid £12.5k but expect to have a total spend of more than your budget. I could have bought a similar boat with far less to do , indeed almost nothing for £25k or less, but my reasons for going down this route are different from most people, and I was well aware of what I intended to spend right from the start. Others find out the real cost after they bought because they underestimate the time and cost of the work required. Unfortunately many boats for sale at this end of the market are being sold because the owners have discovered how much money and work is needed to keep the boat going so you will see a lot of overpriced boats that need work.

After those words of caution, what sort of boat. 30-35' gets you the sort of space for reasonably comfortable living including the all important storage plus space for occasional guests. Aft cabins are good because you have separate living and sleeping areas. Boats of this size can be sailed singlehanded with a bit of thought and modifications to sail handling gear. Actual sailing in open waters is not an issue, but anchoring and parking can be. Aft cockpit boats with tillers are generally easier to park than larger boats with centre cockpits and wheel steering, but not an insoluble problem once you have experience and worked out a strategy for mooring. Good time to talk about training - get some formal training, perhaps do the RYA Day Skipper programme and when you get your boat some one to one own boat tuition.

As to the specific boat, rig type, keel type etc - largely irrelevant. Any mainstream cruising boat aimed at family cruising will do. Perhaps avoid ketches because of the complexity and cost of replacements, although you will find very few in this size range. Domestic gear high on the list - fridge, cooker, heating loo, shower mains shorepower although you will find most of these were not fitted new, or if they were not very well. For sailing, good winches, lines led back to the cockpit, electric windlass, furling headsail all desirable, but again not always there from new. Electrics are a big weakness in boats of this era as the original installations were poor - partly because the electrical demands were low. So many will have 40 years of owners "improvements". On my project I simply ripped almost all of it out and started again. So far £1500 in materials and batteries plus hours of work.

Probably stop there as may have put you off completely - but forewarned is forearmed. It is possible to find a suitable boat in your budget but you will kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince!

 

[Earthlyone]

OK. A budget of £30k is a good start. The reason for the comment about 1980s prices is that you will be looking at boats from that period that are for sale at around 10% of their replacement cost in 2022 prices. The purchase price is just the entry fee to a lifetime of expenditure and replacements, particularly if you try to live full time on the boat. Boats were never designed for living on full time so you need to learn to work within the constraints so it is useful to set out some basic criteria. Be aware that it is highly unlikely that you will buy a fully functioning liveaboard boat in perfect condition in this price range so realistically you need to look for one that has all the expensive bits in good nick. Hull (obviously) engine, sails, rigging, furnishings and domestic equipment, cooker, heating if possible, toilet, water and electrical systems and if you intend sailing a lot decent electronic nav gear. To put this in perspective replacement engine £8-10k, sails £2.5k, rigging same, cooker £600, re-upholster £2k+. These are real prices - I am refitting a boat that might be on your list and I paid £12.5k but expect to have a total spend of more than your budget. I could have bought a similar boat with far less to do , indeed almost nothing for £25k or less, but my reasons for going down this route are different from most people, and I was well aware of what I intended to spend right from the start. Others find out the real cost after they bought because they underestimate the time and cost of the work required. Unfortunately many boats for sale at this end of the market are being sold because the owners have discovered how much money and work is needed to keep the boat going so you will see a lot of overpriced boats that need work.

After those words of caution, what sort of boat. 30-35' gets you the sort of space for reasonably comfortable living including the all important storage plus space for occasional guests. Aft cabins are good because you have separate living and sleeping areas. Boats of this size can be sailed singlehanded with a bit of thought and modifications to sail handling gear. Actual sailing in open waters is not an issue, but anchoring and parking can be. Aft cockpit boats with tillers are generally easier to park than larger boats with centre cockpits and wheel steering, but not an insoluble problem once you have experience and worked out a strategy for mooring. Good time to talk about training - get some formal training, perhaps do the RYA Day Skipper programme and when you get your boat some one to one own boat tuition.

As to the specific boat, rig type, keel type etc - largely irrelevant. Any mainstream cruising boat aimed at family cruising will do. Perhaps avoid ketches because of the complexity and cost of replacements, although you will find very few in this size range. Domestic gear high on the list - fridge, cooker, heating loo, shower mains shorepower although you will find most of these were not fitted new, or if they were not very well. For sailing, good winches, lines led back to the cockpit, electric windlass, furling headsail all desirable, but again not always there from new. Electrics are a big weakness in boats of this era as the original installations were poor - partly because the electrical demands were low. So many will have 40 years of owners "improvements". On my project I simply ripped almost all of it out and started again. So far £1500 in materials and batteries plus hours of work.

Probably stop there as may have put you off completely - but forewarned is forearmed. It is possible to find a suitable boat in your budget but you will kiss a lot of frogs before you find a prince!

Thank you so much for all this advice & information, I will make a note of these points to refer to as I look for a boat. Practicality is much more important to me than anything else so all the advice & information I do get really is helping me to make a better purchase choice.
I am intrigued by your boat project, what boat are you working on?
Leigh

 

[Tranona]

Golden Hind 31. In its day (1970s) highly desirable as a liveaboard ocean cruiser, but by today's standards, narrow, heavy, slow in light airs. Even in my dotage I would be happy living on board for fairly long periods on my own - in my younger days lived for a year weekdays only on an earlier 26' version own. Worth considering if your plans included lots of sailing as it is comfortable and tough, but really too small if you want to have visitors Photos give you an idea, particularly the before and after wiring and distribution panel which has been my main job so far. The boat was fully functioning and everything worked - just nowhere near modern standards and when I ripped it all out it just got worse!

The refit for me is a project in its own right and not a means to an end, and would not suggest anybody takes on this type of project for a liveaboard. With your budget you could get a similar type of boat in very usable condition like this yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/1991-barbican-33-mk-11-6198283/ same designer but a bit later. Slightly hesitant suggesting this particular one as it has been for sale for some time, but similar have sold under £30k in the last year or so. Good luck with your search.

 

[Earthlyone]

Golden Hind 31. In its day (1970s) highly desirable as a liveaboard ocean cruiser, but by today's standards, narrow, heavy, slow in light airs. Even in my dotage I would be happy living on board for fairly long periods on my own - in my younger days lived for a year weekdays only on an earlier 26' version own. Worth considering if your plans included lots of sailing as it is comfortable and tough, but really too small if you want to have visitors Photos give you an idea, particularly the before and after wiring and distribution panel which has been my main job so far. The boat was fully functioning and everything worked - just nowhere near modern standards and when I ripped it all out it just got worse!

The refit for me is a project in its own right and not a means to an end, and would not suggest anybody takes on this type of project for a liveaboard. With your budget you could get a similar type of boat in very usable condition like this yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/1991-barbican-33-mk-11-6198283/ same designer but a bit later. Slightly hesitant suggesting this particular one as it has been for sale for some time, but similar have sold under £30k in the last year or so. Good luck with your search.View attachment 137141View attachment 137142View attachment 137143View attachment 137144View attachment 137145

That’s amazing, what a difference. Lovely boat too. I will only have occasional visitors so not too concerned about having too much extra space to be fair. Shorter boat means less expense all round so I would be happy living on a 31ft boat, I’ve even seen a couple of 29ft that would be ok but I do think 31ft would probably be much more suitable.
I do wonder about a bilge keel as it would be better for tidal spots overnight, some river cruising with being dictated by tide times.
I can not thank you enough for all your help. I am reading up online as much as possible to make sure I don’t buy a boat I will later regret. Obviously I will get a survey but being able to find a great boat & only pay for one survey would be ideal. I really am trying to be as informed as possible.
My house is on the market from today & will sell quickly as houses in my village always do. Will be purchasing a boat as soon as the house sale is transferred into my bank so will go and look at few the week before the transfer of house funds, I’m hoping September at the latest.
The Barbicans & Golden Hinds are beautiful boats. Thanks again, Leigh

 

[Poignard]

Twister archive details - Yachtsnet Ltd. online UK yacht brokers - yacht brokerage and boat sales

 

[Tranona]

That’s amazing, what a difference. Lovely boat too. I will only have occasional visitors so not too concerned about having too much extra space to be fair. Shorter boat means less expense all round so I would be happy living on a 31ft boat, I’ve even seen a couple of 29ft that would be ok but I do think 31ft would probably be much more suitable.
I do wonder about a bilge keel as it would be better for tidal spots overnight, some river cruising with being dictated by tide times.
I can not thank you enough for all your help. I am reading up online as much as possible to make sure I don’t buy a boat I will later regret. Obviously I will get a survey but being able to find a great boat & only pay for one survey would be ideal. I really am trying to be as informed as possible.
My house is on the market from today & will sell quickly as houses in my village always do. Will be purchasing a boat as soon as the house sale is transferred into my bank so will go and look at few the week before the transfer of house funds, I’m hoping September at the latest.
The Barbicans & Golden Hinds are beautiful boats. Thanks again, Leigh

You don't say where you are located, but it is better in general to find a boat fairly local to you as moving boats around the country, either by sea or round can be a PITA - and road expensive. Cost me over £2k to move my boat from west Wales to Poole! Don't expect to buy a boat in a short time scale. I started seriously looking in April and finally bought in October. Start looking now - you need to see as many types of boat as you can to get an idea of what you could live with, never mind finding out about what sort of condition you might expect for your budget.

 

[Kelpie]

If you're considering a shorter boat, put the Westerly Konsort on the list. It packs a lot in to the length and there are plenty of them about.
But as always, keep an open mind, don't pick one model of boat.

 

[Earthlyone]

You don't say where you are located, but it is better in general to find a boat fairly local to you as moving boats around the country, either by sea or round can be a PITA - and road expensive. Cost me over £2k to move my boat from west Wales to Poole! Don't expect to buy a boat in a short time scale. I started seriously looking in April and finally bought in October. Start looking now - you need to see as many types of boat as you can to get an idea of what you could live with, never mind finding out about what sort of condition you might expect for your budget.

I am in Somerset now but will be moving to Cornwall (Saltash) so will moor the boat at Torpoint. I am already looking & getting a feel for what’s suitable for me. I have made a list of boats that would be practical, sensible & enjoyable. I will start viewing some in the next few weeks.
I would ideally like to find something here in the South West.

 

[Earthlyone]

If you're considering a shorter boat, put the Westerly Konsort on the list. It packs a lot in to the length and there are plenty of them about.
But as always, keep an open mind, don't pick one model of boat.

I have a list & Westerly’s are on it. I have seen a few Konsorts online. Not bad. I will keep them in mind. As it’s only me, no pets, no kids, no partner… I could get away with a 28/29footer but I do tend to be more drawn to the 31ft & above. They just have that extra bit of space & comfort that I think I’ll appreciate.
Thank you ? for your help, I very much appreciate it.

 

[V1701]

Are there any size restrictions on your mooring? Does it have shore power (240v)? I've lived on boats full time in a coastal marina in UK for 12 years, smallest an Albin Vega (27ft) which I did 2 years on. Couple of more modern late 20's ft which were a lot more civilised, now have a Colvic Watson 34 which is luxury. Motor sailers (with a wheelhouse) make very good full time liveaboard boats for UK, I couldn't go back to living full time on a boat as small as a Vega, at least not in UK.
Here's the thing - you will do a lot less sailing than you think you will - the weather is crap in UK half the time and if you also have to work...

 

[Earthlyone]

Are there any size restrictions on your mooring? Does it have shore power (240v)? I've lived on boats full time in a coastal marina in UK for 12 years, smallest an Albin Vega (27ft) which I did 2 years on. Couple of more modern late 20's ft which were a lot more civilised, now have a Colvic Watson 34 which is luxury. Motor sailers (with a wheelhouse) make very good full time liveaboard boats for UK, I couldn't go back to living full time on a boat as small as a Vega, at least not in UK.
Here's the thing - you will do a lot less sailing than you think you will - the weather is crap in UK half the time and if you also have to work...

It is ok for me to have up to 40ft where I am going to be mooring & yes there is shore power, however I would eventually like to have a decent solar set up like the Ecoflow type power generators or similar. I don’t work anymore so I will have all the time in the world.
That’s cool that you spent 12 years full time aboard. 2 hrs on 27ft, that’s brave ? I did think about motor sailers also, however, I just don’t feel they are for me. For the days/weeks that weather is crap I will have a Campervan to go off in & do some volunteering around the UK on community projects.
Thank you for your thoughts & sharing your experience… each person that messages in here really does give me more things to think about & that makes me feel like I’m moving forward & preparing well. Cheers

 

[V1701]

That's great, sounds like the sort of set up I'll be aiming for when i'm able to no longer work. The market's a bit bonkers still at the moment, seems to me some boats can still be had for reasonable (i.e. similar to pre-covid) prices though, e.g. Sadler 34, Moody 33 whereas others have gone up significantly in asking price, e.g. Moody 346 but treat each on it's relative merits and go see as many as you can. Have a look at some of the Brit boats but make sure to also have a look at some Euro boats, they'll generally feel more modern, roomy and airy. Scandi boats tend to be of good quality, e.g. this one. Right at the top of your budget but looks very nice, not on it's original engine (big plus), nominally a "motor sailer" but some motor sailers actually sail pretty well. For sale with a reputable broker as well - there are brokers and there are brokers.

I won't be the only one on here who read your first post and thought here we go again, another one who's been watching too much Youtube but it sounds like you've got a reasonable handle on things. Good luck with your plans...