First Rule Advice Sought

[Mark-1]

But how early is early.

You can do it either pretty much whenever you feel like it or when it's absoultely certain the other guy isn't moving. It depends on what we think Apparent means, apparently.

The latter vessel may however take action to avoid collision by her manoeuvre alone, as soon as it becomes apparent to her that the vessel required to keep out of the way is not taking appropriate action in compliance with these Rules.

A quick google give three definitions of apparent that might apply, but aren't consistent:
- Clear or manifest to the understanding
- Appearing as actual to the eye or mind
- Manidest to the senses or mind as real or true on the basis of evidence that may or may not be factually valid

From memory Cockroft doesn't help us, apparently.

Got to love Rule 17.

 

[Never Grumble]

No your position seems to be "you can't change course early for everyone". But how early is early. If you are going to wait till 90s to assess if there's a risk of collision and make your final desperate turn at 30s, the inevitable question is why not just make that turn a minute before and save yourself the stress. You don't need to pre-emptively turn for everyone, or zig zag around, but you also don't need to wait until the very last moment to realise that its either a game of chicken or they haven't seen you/don't interpret the rules the same as you.

I don't think I've ever heard a yacht make 5 blasts? mine is almost certainly more accessible at the bottom of the companionway than the cockpit locker - where rarely used stuff seems to migrate deep into the cave - i'd probably need to get the headtorch (stored with the horn!) to find anything in the cockpit locker! Its a bit like using your horn in the car - if you've got time to react and do that your probably didn't really need to... different on a ship where theres much more "notice", less steerage, and a horn you can hear from much further away.

do the calculations if the motorboat was doing say 12 knots even if he was heading straight for at you and you were stationary then 90 seconds is 0.3 miles away. Even at a minute he'll be a fifth of a mile away so are you suggesting every time someone is roughly a quarter of a mile away and pointing directly at you, you should manoeuvre just in case?

Mine is in a six inch deep locker, its lift the lid and straight to hand, next to my flares and other stuff that might be needed quickly.

 

[ylop]

Even at a minute he'll be a fifth of a mile away so are you suggesting every time someone is roughly a quarter of a mile away and pointing directly at you, you should manoeuvre just in case?

If they are doing 12 knots and showing no signs of having seen/avoid you - I’d say yes! (The question is not if he’s pointing straight at you but if he’s on a constant bearing - if he’s pointing straight at me and I’m doing 6 knots then by the time he arrives “here” i’ll be 300m away from “here”). The change of course needed is much less dramatic from further away too.

 

[Stemar]

Colregs say, broadly, that the stand on vessel should hold their course until it appears that they need to do something because the give way vessel isn't. This is when there's a risk of collision. If I'm stand on, I'll either alter course early to prevent a risk of collision, perhaps because I'm small and manoeuvrable, and he's big*, or I'll stand on until it's apparent that Give Way isn't going to. Doing that allows Give Way to make a minimal course adjustment to avoid me. Being predictable is part of being safe in my book.

Yes, I'm aware that the big boys' ideas of close can be a couple of miles.

 

[Daydream believer]

Can someone in a MOBO with engines going actually hear 5 measly blasts from a yachts horn at 100 yds (or whatever)?
Finally- & more important- would I still be standing -having used up all my oxygen supply puffing through the darned thing?

 

[justanothersailboat]

It seems to be common for motorboats to have fairly substantial powered horns, but few small sailing yachts have them... I briefly considered fitting one, but concluded I wouldn't be any safer, as the arrogant "get out of my way, slow stick-and-rag man" types would ignore it and the dozy "I put the auto on and made cocktails" types would probably also ignore it and everybody else is paying attention.

Sailing yachts should be obliged to carry a small cannon instead. That would also help clearly signal appropriate right-of-way behaviour to jetskis i. e. the jetski's only correct behaviour is to sink.

 

[Sandy]

its the problem with smaller more manoeuvrable vessels if you changed course for everyone 'just in case' then you would be zig zagging everywhere ... five short blasts similar issue.

I beg to differ given the report that the OP posted. 100 meters at closing speed of c20 knots does not give you a huge amount of time.

He was concerned about the actions of the motor boat and, IMHO, had every right to give five. This was Scotland not the overcrowded waters of Lake Solent.

Of course it is a bit more dramatic when a 30,000 tonne cross channel ferry needs to give five to a 10 tonne sailing boat when clearly the sailing vessel had not looked as it crossed the entrance to the ferries berth. I've never seen a boat do a 180° so quickly!

 

[Roberto]

As a corollary, never ever go sailing along prized Mediterranean coastlines during summer.

 

[B27]

Really, I want advice about possibly raising a complaint against another boats person.

An incident occurred at the weekend.
I am a 36 ft sailing vessel, sailing efficiently on a close reach in 12 kn breeze, making 6kn., approaching a red can buoy on starboard tack
A power boat, approx 60 ft making approx 12 to 15 kn is approaching from my port side, heading directly towards me.
I hold my course.
After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
I am in danger of being hit amidships at considerable speed
I bear away.
The powerboat passes within 20m without reducing speed.

After I calm down, I raise the coastguard on vhf, reporting the vessel’s name and a description of the incident
The coastguard takes details, asks questions and offers me the opportunity to raise a complaint.

I know nothing of such a procedure, nor its implications.

So, esteemed forumites,
1 what would you have done?
2 what should I do now?

Thanks

Mr Don

Was there actually 'risk of collision'?
If so, did your 'bear away' have a substantial effect or did the other boat avoid you?
The issue is quite likely more about wash, which is not really a colregs thing.
There's no actual crime in passing 20m from another boat, although, depending on the circumstances, it can be rude, foolish and/or unnecessary. OTOH, it can be the prudent thing to do, for instance there is a third boat to consider or some other hazard.

Also what was the situation in the 5 minutes before all this?
Presumably the powerboat did not appear from nowhere, so how did you get onto a course to pass close?
You can't pick and choose when to start applying colregs, it's a bit different from the racing rules where you're allowed to tack into someone's path and acquire 'right of way' status. Who altered course or speed to create the situation?
As with racing, the whole thing might have looked ver different from the other bloke's viewpoint.

The presence of a channel mark suggests we don't have the full picture anyway?

I think what you should do now is consider whether you might have predicted this by thinking more than a minute ahead and avoided the issue entirely. It doesn't matter if the other bloke is in the wrong, life is easier if you predict his actions and give yourself space.

Unless the other bloke was making huge wash or being reckless, not at the helm, not looking etc, it's a non-event and there is no gain in reporting it unless you think it's some sort of pattern of behaviour. There isn't really anyone adjudicating non-collisions between small boats.

 

[Never Grumble]

I beg to differ given the report that the OP posted. 100 meters at closing speed of c20 knots does not give you a huge amount of time.

He was concerned about the actions of the motor boat and, IMHO, had every right to give five. This was Scotland not the overcrowded waters of Lake Solent.

you must be reading a different post as here the OP said

After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
and that he was doing between 12-15 knots.

The point of my comment was to illustrate how quick such situations develop.

Neither did I say he wasn't entitled to give 5 short blasts just that doing so was practically difficult in the time available.

 

[Sandy]

you must be reading a different post as here the OP said

After 30 secs, there is no change in the powerboats course
After 1 min, there is no change, and he is now 100 m away.
and that he was doing between 12-15 knots.

The point of my comment was to illustrate how quick such situations develop.

Neither did I say he wasn't entitled to give 5 short blasts just that doing so was practically difficult in the time available.

The way I read your post was you were worried in case lots of small yachts were zig-zagging all over the place blasting five. We have a habit of zig-zagging.

You will have seen my post #11.

 

[Never Grumble]

The way I read your post was you were worried in case lots of small yachts were zig-zagging all over the place blasting five. We have a habit of zig-zagging.

You will have seen my post #11.

Yes I zigzag all over the place in my yacht also.
I think we can probably all agree time to make decisions/take action is limited and without actually being there or knowing relative positions and aspects etc its impossible to give a definite answer.

 

[Sandy]

Yes I zigzag all over the place in my yacht also.
I think we can probably all agree time to make decisions/take action is limited and without actually being there or knowing relative positions and aspects etc its impossible to give a definite answer.

<pedant alert>
The only definite answer is the conclusion that the skipper/watchkeeper made at the time.
</pedant alert>

We all take the decisions that we are comfortable with. Personally, I like a total exclusion zone of at least two nautical miles round the boat and my eyes are on stalks when a motor boat (especially RIBS) are anywhere between me and the horizon as I am never quite sure a) what they are doing and b) if they are paying attention to anything but 5° off the bow as they are looking for pots!