scarlett
New member
I bought a new Italian chain in Preveza and sold the old one to Second-hand Jeff in Vleiho [sic]. Cost a bit but not too much, net and I am a lot happy-er parting with the C links.
Which end of the anchor chain? (Vyv - are you there?)
- Thread starter Abigail
- Start date
Richard10002
Well-known member
[ QUOTE ]
and stows neatly.
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Mine doesnt /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It piles up until it jams at the opening, (except that I nip down below to push the pile over before it gets that far). I've got a volleyball in there to try and make it fall better, but it hasnt worked.
and stows neatly.
[/ QUOTE ]
Mine doesnt /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It piles up until it jams at the opening, (except that I nip down below to push the pile over before it gets that far). I've got a volleyball in there to try and make it fall better, but it hasnt worked.
Liz_I
New member
Hadn't noticed before Richard.
Hope you had a great Birthday. ZVD xx
Hope you had a great Birthday. ZVD xx
DaiB
Member
Just to go back to my earlier post, as long as you have a "proper" joining link you have no reason to worry about your cable.
For general info most ships anchor cables are joined, your average VLCC will have a cable with a diameter of around 100mm. It would have about 10 to 14 standard lengths of 27m, each joined with a connecting shackle.
For general info most ships anchor cables are joined, your average VLCC will have a cable with a diameter of around 100mm. It would have about 10 to 14 standard lengths of 27m, each joined with a connecting shackle.
A
Anonymous
Guest
[ QUOTE ]
Just to go back to my earlier post, as long as you have a "proper" joining link you have no reason to worry about your cable.
For general info most ships anchor cables are joined, your average VLCC will have a cable with a diameter of around 100mm. It would have about 10 to 14 standard lengths of 27m, each joined with a connecting shackle.
[/ QUOTE ]The VLCC's cable connectors will have been certified to comply with the appropriate standards and fitted by qualified persons, and inspected by a qualified inspector. That is rather different from buying a link mail order off the Internet, and fitted by, say, an office administrator who has never seen one before, never been trained to fit one, and with no inspector to check that it was done correctly. I don't think that you can fairly compare the two.
Just to go back to my earlier post, as long as you have a "proper" joining link you have no reason to worry about your cable.
For general info most ships anchor cables are joined, your average VLCC will have a cable with a diameter of around 100mm. It would have about 10 to 14 standard lengths of 27m, each joined with a connecting shackle.
[/ QUOTE ]The VLCC's cable connectors will have been certified to comply with the appropriate standards and fitted by qualified persons, and inspected by a qualified inspector. That is rather different from buying a link mail order off the Internet, and fitted by, say, an office administrator who has never seen one before, never been trained to fit one, and with no inspector to check that it was done correctly. I don't think that you can fairly compare the two.
mandlmaunder
New member
many sentient points in all that has been said, this an anchoring thread and no name calling !!!.
But one thing that I would draw to peoples attention is not to mix SS and Galvanised parts on a chain/anchor line because of the galvanic action which will weaked the chain/anchor(if Galv) around the SS fitting.
Good thread.
Mark
But one thing that I would draw to peoples attention is not to mix SS and Galvanised parts on a chain/anchor line because of the galvanic action which will weaked the chain/anchor(if Galv) around the SS fitting.
Good thread.
Mark
A
Anonymous
Guest
I've had no problems with a stainless Kong swivel connecting galvanised chain to a galvanised anchor and it is used all summer. Before I fitted the Kong, the chain galvanising was getting weak and I painted it with cold galvanising spray, and that is holding up well.
I think that there is an issue with permanent moorings, but ordinary anchoring seems fine.
I think that there is an issue with permanent moorings, but ordinary anchoring seems fine.
saltwater_gypsy
New member
- Joined
- 13 Jan 2008
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- 1,946
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- Now back in Scotland . Boat for sale
This has been a good thread in spite of Vyv's absence!!!!!!
Just a point I missed earlier which Vyv makes in his YM article is the difference between Safe Working Load (SWL) and Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) . For lifting equipment UTS = 6x SWL and for marine applications, UTS = 4x SWL..
So, when a C-link fractures at 1.8 tons, you shouldn't use such a link in an application where the load exceeds 0.45tons. That I think is well inside the expected loads on anchor chain.
There may be better links on the market but it shows that you can't just walk into a chandelry and walk out with a suitable link.
Sleep tight!!!!!
Just a point I missed earlier which Vyv makes in his YM article is the difference between Safe Working Load (SWL) and Ultimate Tensile Strength (UTS) . For lifting equipment UTS = 6x SWL and for marine applications, UTS = 4x SWL..
So, when a C-link fractures at 1.8 tons, you shouldn't use such a link in an application where the load exceeds 0.45tons. That I think is well inside the expected loads on anchor chain.
There may be better links on the market but it shows that you can't just walk into a chandelry and walk out with a suitable link.
Sleep tight!!!!!
DaiB
Member
""""The VLCC's cable connectors will have been certified to comply with the appropriate standards and fitted by qualified persons, and inspected by a qualified inspector. That is rather different from buying a link mail order off the Internet, and fitted by, say, an office administrator who has never seen one before, never been trained to fit one, and with no inspector to check that it was done correctly. I don't think that you can fairly compare the two."""""
I'm sure most people who run their own boat and do the maintenence can connect a "C" link, even if they are "office administrators". It's a matter of buying the correct link and fitting it. The actual fitting is only riveting over the securing rivets. These hold the link together and form a minor part of the strength of the link. You don't need a "qualified C link assembly inspector" to check if you have done the riveting right, just common sense.
As far as marine inspection is concerned maybe a lot of years ago each joining shackle would have been inspected along with the mill cert for the steel. Times have changed in the marine industry and standards of inspection are variable.
I'm sure most people who run their own boat and do the maintenence can connect a "C" link, even if they are "office administrators". It's a matter of buying the correct link and fitting it. The actual fitting is only riveting over the securing rivets. These hold the link together and form a minor part of the strength of the link. You don't need a "qualified C link assembly inspector" to check if you have done the riveting right, just common sense.
As far as marine inspection is concerned maybe a lot of years ago each joining shackle would have been inspected along with the mill cert for the steel. Times have changed in the marine industry and standards of inspection are variable.
A
Anonymous
Guest
All I was really trying to say, for the reasons I gave, was that you cannot safely reason that, because VLCCs use links, links are OK for yachts. One does not follow from the other. It's an entirely different problem, a different scale, different engineering, QA and inspection. Yes, modern QA often requires the operator to take responsibility for his work but you won't find that the ship's cook has fitted the anchor links.
DaiB
Member
"""All I was really trying to say, for the reasons I gave, was that you cannot safely reason that, because VLCCs use links, links are OK for yachts. One does not follow from the other. It's an entirely different problem, a different scale, different engineering, QA and inspection. Yes, modern QA often requires the operator to take responsibility for his work but you won't find that the ship's cook has fitted the anchor links."""
Sorry Lemain but it is not different engineering, only difference is the size and same rules apply, cross section and strength of material are the factors. Fitting a joining shackle isn't difficult apart from the sizes involved, and while I agree that the ships cook wouldn't normally fit one, anybody with an average IQ could be taught how in about twenty mins.
On some boats you may find that fitting a Crosby or similar link may end up being the strongest part of the chain, nowadays is anyone sure where their chain originated from and what material it's made of????
Sorry Lemain but it is not different engineering, only difference is the size and same rules apply, cross section and strength of material are the factors. Fitting a joining shackle isn't difficult apart from the sizes involved, and while I agree that the ships cook wouldn't normally fit one, anybody with an average IQ could be taught how in about twenty mins.
On some boats you may find that fitting a Crosby or similar link may end up being the strongest part of the chain, nowadays is anyone sure where their chain originated from and what material it's made of????
craigsmith
Member
[ QUOTE ]
When I bought my Kong anchor connector, I recall that there was a diagram on the packet suggesting that the connector was the weakest link, (still having a breaking strain of a couple of tonnes).
I wonder what the breaking strain of these C links is, and how much force is actually placed on the chain, even in the heaviest of weather?
[/ QUOTE ]
Pitching etc at short scope, or if you are struggling to retrieve an anchor in rough water, can place enormous loads in the chain, so it is reasonable to be concerned. Shackles are often the weak link, or the anchor itself, if it's fouled and depending on how.
We've turned I-beam steel into a potato crisp trying to retrieve a fouled anchor on a nasty leeshore when the weather turned - the chain pulled in to a 1:1 ratio, and no way was the windlass pulling any more. With the bow pitching several meters and the chain snatching and shaking 30 tonnes of boat, on went the chain stop, and forward power applied - "something will give, we'll find out what..."
So, a quality shackle and certified proofed chain held their own that day.
The issue with swivels is a bit of a red herring - they are problematic if mounted directly onto the anchor shank, as they must then deal with lateral loading, and this is their typical failure mode. With joining links we need only be concerned with in-line loading.
When I bought my Kong anchor connector, I recall that there was a diagram on the packet suggesting that the connector was the weakest link, (still having a breaking strain of a couple of tonnes).
I wonder what the breaking strain of these C links is, and how much force is actually placed on the chain, even in the heaviest of weather?
[/ QUOTE ]
Pitching etc at short scope, or if you are struggling to retrieve an anchor in rough water, can place enormous loads in the chain, so it is reasonable to be concerned. Shackles are often the weak link, or the anchor itself, if it's fouled and depending on how.
We've turned I-beam steel into a potato crisp trying to retrieve a fouled anchor on a nasty leeshore when the weather turned - the chain pulled in to a 1:1 ratio, and no way was the windlass pulling any more. With the bow pitching several meters and the chain snatching and shaking 30 tonnes of boat, on went the chain stop, and forward power applied - "something will give, we'll find out what..."
So, a quality shackle and certified proofed chain held their own that day.
The issue with swivels is a bit of a red herring - they are problematic if mounted directly onto the anchor shank, as they must then deal with lateral loading, and this is their typical failure mode. With joining links we need only be concerned with in-line loading.
craigsmith
Member
[ QUOTE ]
nowadays is anyone sure where their chain originated from and what material it's made of????
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yes, and you had better hope that you do know - as with all anchor gear, scrimping on any element of it often turns out to be a bad idea. Good quality chain from reputable manufacturers is proof tested and certified. If they can't/won't show you the certificates in the shop, go someplace else.
Proof testing by the way is a quality assurance step taken by the manufacturer. They typically load the chain to twice its SWL, which is half its break, if the SWL is at the standard 4:1 safety margin (typically not the case in the USA). More on the Rocna knowledge base re anchor chain.
You should therefore be able to more-or-less match up the SWL and proof figures for any joining link you're considering, and identify if there is likely to be any issue. You are again reliant on the reputation of the manufacturer and any third party classification/certification outfit involved.
nowadays is anyone sure where their chain originated from and what material it's made of????
[/ QUOTE ]
Well yes, and you had better hope that you do know - as with all anchor gear, scrimping on any element of it often turns out to be a bad idea. Good quality chain from reputable manufacturers is proof tested and certified. If they can't/won't show you the certificates in the shop, go someplace else.
Proof testing by the way is a quality assurance step taken by the manufacturer. They typically load the chain to twice its SWL, which is half its break, if the SWL is at the standard 4:1 safety margin (typically not the case in the USA). More on the Rocna knowledge base re anchor chain.
You should therefore be able to more-or-less match up the SWL and proof figures for any joining link you're considering, and identify if there is likely to be any issue. You are again reliant on the reputation of the manufacturer and any third party classification/certification outfit involved.
saltwater_gypsy
New member
- Joined
- 13 Jan 2008
- Messages
- 1,946
- Location
- Now back in Scotland . Boat for sale
For the avoidance of confusion it should be made clear that Selby supply two kinds of chain links.
http://www.liftingsafety.co.uk/product/alloy-connecting-link-2471.html
The first they call their Alloy chain link which is made of a strong steel alloy with a single pin through the centre . The 8mm model has a working load of 2.5T which is at least as strong as 8mm chain BUT it will not smoothly pass over a windlass gypsy.
The second type is the more familiar C-link which at 8mm has a working load of 0.89T (breaking stength about 3.5tons) which compares quite well with 8mm chain with a breaking strength of 5T.
This obviously much better than the Plastimo C-links which Vyv tested which has a breaking points of 1.75T and 1.95T.(Working load of about (0.45T)
The bottom line is that you should only use certified components throughout the whole anchor assembly and avoid C-links if you can..
http://www.liftingsafety.co.uk/product/alloy-connecting-link-2471.html
The first they call their Alloy chain link which is made of a strong steel alloy with a single pin through the centre . The 8mm model has a working load of 2.5T which is at least as strong as 8mm chain BUT it will not smoothly pass over a windlass gypsy.
The second type is the more familiar C-link which at 8mm has a working load of 0.89T (breaking stength about 3.5tons) which compares quite well with 8mm chain with a breaking strength of 5T.
This obviously much better than the Plastimo C-links which Vyv tested which has a breaking points of 1.75T and 1.95T.(Working load of about (0.45T)
The bottom line is that you should only use certified components throughout the whole anchor assembly and avoid C-links if you can..
Scotty_Tradewind
Active member
I keep a little woman in my chain locker to push over the pile /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
Richard10002
Well-known member
Hello Craig - I've missed your posts, even if others havent /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Where have you been hiding?
Looks like there is an improving supply of Rocnas, (and more chandlers offering them), in the UK lately.
For me, I would have to go to Lefkas in Greece to get one... which is a possibility, although there is currently too much month left at the end of the money.
(I'll bet that's put the cat amongst the pigeons /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Richard
Where have you been hiding?
Looks like there is an improving supply of Rocnas, (and more chandlers offering them), in the UK lately.
For me, I would have to go to Lefkas in Greece to get one... which is a possibility, although there is currently too much month left at the end of the money.
(I'll bet that's put the cat amongst the pigeons /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )
Richard
DaiB
Member
"""Well yes, and you had better hope that you do know - as with all anchor gear, scrimping on any element of it often turns out to be a bad idea. Good quality chain from reputable manufacturers is proof tested and certified. If they can't/won't show you the certificates in the shop, go someplace else.""""
Don't know how many of us have a certificate for the chain in use. I am now on my third boat and none of these came with any certs for the chain, so in my case all I know is the chain is 10mm. Am I alone in this?? Be interesting to know what
sort of percentage of owners know thier chain origins and wether they have test certs.
By the way Craig, nice anchor I bought from you, pleased with it.
Don't know how many of us have a certificate for the chain in use. I am now on my third boat and none of these came with any certs for the chain, so in my case all I know is the chain is 10mm. Am I alone in this?? Be interesting to know what
sort of percentage of owners know thier chain origins and wether they have test certs.
By the way Craig, nice anchor I bought from you, pleased with it.
craigsmith
Member
[ QUOTE ]
Hello Craig - I've missed your posts, even if others havent /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Where have you been hiding?
[/ QUOTE ]
Antarctica!
As far away from it all as possible...
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like there is an improving supply of Rocnas, (and more chandlers offering them), in the UK lately.
For me, I would have to go to Lefkas in Greece to get one... which is a possibility, although there is currently too much month left at the end of the money.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep things are improving.
For the Med, Italy is also covered, including Sicily, and France soon to be set-up.
Hello Craig - I've missed your posts, even if others havent /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
Where have you been hiding?
[/ QUOTE ]
Antarctica!
As far away from it all as possible...
[ QUOTE ]
Looks like there is an improving supply of Rocnas, (and more chandlers offering them), in the UK lately.
For me, I would have to go to Lefkas in Greece to get one... which is a possibility, although there is currently too much month left at the end of the money.
[/ QUOTE ]
Yep things are improving.
For the Med, Italy is also covered, including Sicily, and France soon to be set-up.
charles_reed
Active member
I had a load certificate for my chain, made in Cradley Heath.
But then I bought direct from the manufacturer and not some chandler, who'd bought from an wholesaler, who'd obtained from a P O Box in Taiwan, from someone who never saw, never handled and knew nothing about the chain coming from somewhere in Central China.
Incidentally it was about 60% of the price of chandlers' chain - but what could one expect after all those margins?
But then I bought direct from the manufacturer and not some chandler, who'd bought from an wholesaler, who'd obtained from a P O Box in Taiwan, from someone who never saw, never handled and knew nothing about the chain coming from somewhere in Central China.
Incidentally it was about 60% of the price of chandlers' chain - but what could one expect after all those margins?
