Which end of the anchor chain? (Vyv - are you there?)

Abigail

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We have decided to extend our anchor chain, and bought the c-link recommended by Vyv. The question is - which end to put it on?

We had thought to put it on the inboard end - 'cos it will see much less use so we won't be relying on it very often. Then it was pointed out to us that the end on the seabed gets much less tension so it would be safer to put the weaker link down there.

We're putting another 20m on 60m of chain, so for that to be on the seabed in (say) 5m of water, we'd have put out at least 25m, or 5:1, which we don't always do.

What do people think?

Thanks for your thoughts
 

Richard10002

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[ QUOTE ]
We're putting another 20m on 60m of chain, so for that to be on the seabed in (say) 5m of water, we'd have put out at least 25m, or 5:1, which we don't always do.

[/ QUOTE ]

Dont forget that you have to include the distance from the water to the anchor roller, say another meter. So, if you are anchored in 5m of water, you should put out chain for a 6m depth - hope that makes sense.

i.e in 5m, (plus 1m), you would put out 24m to get 4:1.

I like 5:1 unless in one of those anchorages where you can pass a cup of sugar to your neighbours.

Without thinking too much about it, I would probably add it to the inboard end.

Richard
 

Poignard

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[ QUOTE ]
What do people think?

[/ QUOTE ]

Before I used one of these c-links I would compare its breaking load with that the chain I was using it to join.

Then I wouldn't use it!

Well you did ask!

ps However if you must use one, it's best to use it at the anchor end, then when it breaks you only lose your anchor and not the chain [unless you fail to realise it's broken, then you lose your yacht as well]
 

mandlmaunder

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If you must add 20m to your existing 60m,then you should reverse your 60m so that the boat end becomes the anchor attachment end and G join the 20n to the boat.
Personally I wouldn't do that, I would buy 80m of new chain and keep the 60m as back up on a second or third anchor, but that's just me and the area's that we cruise in.
Any join in chain is a potential weak or snag point!

/forums/images/graemlins/cool.gif
 

damo

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I've just added 30m chain to the 45m I already had. I cut vee notches in the connecting links so they just about fitted together, then got an engineer to weld them for the price of a pint.
He originally suggested using a joining link but when I pointed out that it would be weaker he said the 2 halves could be welded shut. He then agreed that my solution was cheaper, easier and stronger /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
A

Anonymous

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Personally I am suspicious about those things but it is probably prejudice.... But to answer your question, one often gets a tremendous force and snatching when raising the anchor if it has become fouled or well-buried. The chain is almost entirely straight up and down and the yacht is pitching, snatching on the chain. Sometimes I have had to motor the anchor out. To date, I have had far higher forces during that phase than I have ever had during anchoring -- though I have never had to anchor in really severe weather (and hope not to). There comes a stage when you are safer at sea, anyway, or ashore! If I was going to use one of those links I would use it to give me more scope for deep water anchorages, I'd put it on the boat side so that it is seldom used, and I would mentally regard it as a fair to moderate weather chain when that link is out.
 

Chris_Robb

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Vyv is traveling to Greece at the moment.

I did the same excercise as you 2 years ago. Which C link did you buy? I say that because the one from West Marine turned out to be a crappy chinese cast job, still labelled as Forged. I am not at home at the moment, so I can't remember the name of the OK one.

You will know the difference when you come to rivet them together. The cast C link will only take 2 or 3 bashes with a hammer. The proper forged one, will take a lot of bashing to rivet - and I mean a lot of bashing!

Anyway, this year I bought 80 mtr of new chain, as I only had 40 mteres (2 x 20 lenghts) and I wanted 80 meters.

Where to put it? I would have it on the inboard end, why - because it doesn't goes through the gypsy that well!

I would save the costs of the link (£30) and buy new chain, and sell the old on ebay, or even this forum (sale section)
 

Richard10002

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When I bought my Kong anchor connector, I recall that there was a diagram on the packet suggesting that the connector was the weakest link, (still having a breaking strain of a couple of tonnes).

I wonder what the breaking strain of these C links is, and how much force is actually placed on the chain, even in the heaviest of weather?

i.e. are we worrying about something that doesnt necessarily need worrying about?
 

DaiB

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Can confirm that a "proper" joining link takes a hell of a lot of riveting over.
I have used a Crosby forged link from Selby Engineering.
Working load quoted at 1.2ton and untimate breaking at 4 times working.
This data for 3/8 inch link, used with 10mm chain. No problems experienced with the windlass as the link comes over.
According to the tables on the web site the 3/8 link working load is virtually the same as the 10mm chain working load.
FYG cost is about 13 quid but postage is 12 quid.
 

saltwater_gypsy

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By a strange chance I have the May2006 Centenary edition of YM beside me . In it, the good VYV tests chain links and shackles.
The measured breaking points are:
8mm chain 4.4T
8mm D shackle 2.38T
10mm D shackle 4.24T
10mm SS D shackle 6.67T
8mm C-link 1.8T (average)
It is also interesting that the weakest of the 8mm swivels parted at1.87T and the best (Osculanti) at 4.39T

In the light of this I would NEVER use a C-link and would invest in new chain. Also I would use the largest SS shackle that would fit the anchor shank and end link.
Given that there is a lot of Chinese junk on the market I would always go for the simplest strongest option.
PS I agree with Silver_Fox regarding Octoplait.
 

silver-fox

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With the best of intentions, I am about to ramble on a bit... so you have been warned /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

Your question presupposes the best way to extend your anchor chain is to add more chain and you look for the best way of achieving this....and I don't think that's the way to go!

I now believe that far and away the best solution is to extend using Octiplait line. Amazingly its stronger than the chain, stretches to accommodate shocks, lighter and easy to join to chain. Its only draw back is that it does not have the chaff resistance of chain.

Before equipping our boat I had a lot of preconceptions and intended to increase the amount of chain we carried. The research I subsequently did both surprised me and changed a number of long held views that turned out to be plain wrong.

I recommend that you look at this web site which really goes into the why's and wherefore's of best practice and the length of rode, best rode combination, stresses and strains, etc in given weather conditions before making your decision.

http://alain.fraysse.free.fr/sail/rode/rode.htm

Ramble over /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif
 
A

Anonymous

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[ QUOTE ]
Its only draw back is that it does not have the chaff resistance of chain.


[/ QUOTE ]I remember discussing this with you, during a very enjoyable winter in Almerimar /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif I use octoplait to extend -- partly because it's good, partly because I've got loads and loads of strong octoplait (so it's free /forums/images/graemlins/wink.gif ) and partly because of the weight penalty of chain.

However, the lack of chafe resistance is not the only drawback for the short-handed cruising couple. If you are going to join chain to rope then you need someone fit and able to handle the anchor tackle on the foredeck whenever you are raising or lowering the anchor. I've now got sorted out so that S. only has to tell me the lie of the chain and I can raise and lower it from the helm -- as well as adjust power and rudder. If I have to put rope out then I need to be there at the join. Not a problem in good light and conditions, but not so good in poor conditions.

Bet I rambled on more than you did /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 

tri39

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I'm glad Silver Fox said that 60mtrs of chain is enough!
As Lemain points out octoplait saves weight and acts as a shock absorber, and I'm convinced we drag less with some octoplait than with all chain. We join octoplait to chain with a stainless shackle with countersunk pin which manages the windlass and hawsepipe with help.
To make it easier I'll try a chain/octoplait splice altho I don't like the look of them!
 

silver-fox

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Yes it was a great winter in Almerimar, /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif the social life nearly killed me

Your points are correct if you want a system that can be operated remotely as the "join" does need some help over the windlass at times.

Totally refute your suggestion that you are even remotely as good as me at rambling with two notable exceptions; -

1. Spanish Taxes
2. Gold and the future

....an even then, to be fair, your crime is tenacity rather than rambling! /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

... but now I am guilty of Fred Drift... so back to joining anchor chain.....
 
A

Anonymous

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[ QUOTE ]

Hmmm. What size cleats and their bases and fastenings can take over 2 tons? And very few winch spindles will take that much torsion, so it had better be a cleat doing the job!

[/ QUOTE ]I agree. On the rare occasion that really nasty stuff has been a threat I have shackled two heavy octoplait lines to the anchor chain (in place of a snubber) and run those back port and stbd, once around the fwd cleat then, under tension, around the midships cleat. Then I pull some spare chain out of the locker, put an old engine-room towel around the windlass (to avoid scratching it) and take a few turns of chain around the windlass. It doesn't take long and at least you know that the boaty end is unlikely to break.

This invariably results in the glass rising, wind dropping and a potter ashore in the tender /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif It's how umbrellas work, too.
 

saltwater_gypsy

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There be an old saying....... "you should be able to lift a yacht by its cleats".

Maybe ,maybe not but there is a good likelyhood that you will get snubbing at a couple of tons per cleat at some stage so be prepared!!

If you read the item reference posted by Silver -Fox you will find that the predicted loadings are pretty high.

What is the point in putting a 4T shackle on the anchor to your 4.5T anchor chain and then including a 1.8T C-link when you can easily make a better arrangement?
 

Salty John

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I wouldn't hesitate to use a genuine ACCO or Crosby C-link, as per Vyv's recommendations.
You might want to take the opportunity to end for end the chain anyway, just so the bit in the locker doesn't congeal into a rusty ball while the other end does all the work!
I also wouldn't hesitate to use all chain - it gives great confidence. Rope/chain connections always worry me and nylon is not chafe resistant. Also, chain feeds itself down the hawse pipe without assistance and stows neatly.
The only possible reasons to use a rope/chain rode are cost and weight. Compared to the cost of the boat the extra for chain isn't really a consideration. Stowing a lot of chain in the bow of a pointy ended boat can lead to some hobby-horsing! So, consider ways of stowing much of the chain further aft and low down - I'd rather alter my stowage arrangements to allow me to carry bulletproof ground tackle, than compromise my ground tackle so the boat can carry it.
I know there will a huge disparity of opinion - this is, after all, an anchoring thread! My anchoring experience is quite extensive, but based on monohulls in Caribbean conditions; others will have other opinions.
 

Abigail

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Thanks everyone.

We bought a Crosby C-link from Selby, specifically as tested and recommended by Vyv; it remains a lot cheaper than replacing the whole chain! Wwe do not like chain/rope mixes for many of the reasons mentioned here - not on our main bower anchor. (We have chain and rope on both our second bow anchor and our stern anchor.)

We have sat at anchor through a variety of conditions up to 50 knots, in depths from 4m to 20m, so have a fair idea about how the boat behaves, and our own tolerance! We would agree that the pitching, and shock loads it generates, are at least as bad as the steady pull generated by a constant uni-directional wind. Certainly pitching is far more likely to unseat the anchor from the sea bed.

We have found 60m nearly always enough, but not quite always. In eastern spain and southern france there have been a few times when the extra few meters would have made a big difference to our comfort levels - eg at Port Man in the iles d'Hyeres, where the centre of the anchorage (an excellent mistral hidey-hole) is at least 18m deep, putting us at the very edge of our comfort zone with 60m of chain. Hence the addition.

Weight is certainly an issue, and we do have a general issue with too much weight forward. We have already started balancing stuff, and moving weight aft as much as we can accommodate and will continue to do so. But we agree with saltyjohn that we want to get ground tackle we are happy with and then arrange our stowage, rather than the other way round.

We have had a good look at the chain and at the moment don't believe it needs end to ending.

Given all this it sounds as though we are right to put it at the inboard end.

Thanks again.
 
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