Kelpie
Well-Known Member
A two second look at the advert reveals otherwise.
Which Boat
- Thread starter Sandgrounder
- Start date
pvb
Well-Known Member
I think you are wrong about CE marking - check the regulations.
Sandgrounder
Well-Known Member
Tranona,
Thanks for that; I was wondering why there wasn't a steady stream of them coming over. I'd considered the shipping and the VAT but I hadn't given a thought to CE marking and RCD!
Two interesting points arise:
- If we accept my earlier claim that the Yanks know how to price 30 and 40 year old yachts rationally then it indicates how over priced the same is here. And worse if the difference in valuation is explained by a local belief system, if/when that belief system crumbles it shows how much further MAB prices have to fall.
- Want to go bluewater cruising on a low budget? Then fly over to the US and start your refit under the Florida sun and skip that nasty Biscay and 3 weeks of tedium rolling downwind crossing the Atlantic.
bitbaltic
Well-Known Member
In response to 'have you crossed an ocean?'
That made me smile. Every time I have crossed the English Channel has been much easier than any time I've crossed the Bristol Channel, so if you have sailed in seas more challenging than those who cross oceans, perhaps I can consider myself up with the circumnavigators!
That made me smile. Every time I have crossed the English Channel has been much easier than any time I've crossed the Bristol Channel, so if you have sailed in seas more challenging than those who cross oceans, perhaps I can consider myself up with the circumnavigators!
doug748
Well-Known Member
There are some lovely boats there.
Look in the Med if you want a Manky White Boat instead. A quick glace gives you a:
Beneteau 34 asking 17k
Bav 34 c 10yrs old asking under 30k
Grand Soleil 34 asking 15k
Gib Sea 36 under 20k
There is going to be a glut of larger boats in the next few years as the market plays out. They may not be the best for Northern Europe but they are going to be cheap.
Still I agree, there are some very nicely put together boats in your link and much better suited to the OPs situation and requirements.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
The RCD applies to any boat imported for use in the EU, irrespective of age. Pre 1998 non EEA built boats are only exempt IF they were in the EU on the qualifying date in 1998. Have a look on the CE Proof website for details on certifying US built boats.
Therefore that rules out any of the old boats that are still in the US. As I said, that is one of the main reasons why there is virtually no trade in cheap old boats from the US. Plus the fact that, as those who have looked at buying over there have found out, most of the old boats are not worth buying. Unsurprising really, given their low value they tend not to be well looked after, just like many old boats here.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
As ever there is a sound reason why such boats there are cheap - and of no use to somebody who wants a boat in Scotland.
The main market in the Med away from France and Italy is for non resident buyers - that is northern Europeans that want a boat in the sun. Such buyers mainly want a boat that they can just go to and use, rather than one that needs work, although some will be looking for a boat they can live on and possibly work on while they are living on it.
You have to go there and look at the condition of older boats that are non resident owned to understand how poor they can be and if they are away from the main centres, how difficult it is to get them up to scratch.
If you want the boat for the UK you are faced with £5-10k to get it back to the UK. Even if you sail it back you are looking at most of the summer in cruising mode to do it, or 4 weeks delivery mode (assuming it is up to the trip without problems). It only makes sense if you treat the return trip as part of the adventure.
The best buys in the Med are recent AWBs, mainly ex charter boats for continued use as originally intended or as liveaboards for the summer months.
doug748
Well-Known Member
Very true, the joys of boating in a cold climate.
There is every sign that people will put up with unsuitable boats if they are cheap enough. but I can see the value of modern'ish 40 foot boats falling off a ledge in the next ten years. Few people need the size in the UK, mooring and running costs are exorbitant and they are not generally designed for the job.
It may feel great on charter with a group of friends but like the bottle of local plonk, may not taste so good in Portsmouth. The only place for the majority of owners to enjoy the average larger boat is somewhere else.
There is every sign that people will put up with unsuitable boats if they are cheap enough. but I can see the value of modern'ish 40 foot boats falling off a ledge in the next ten years. Few people need the size in the UK, mooring and running costs are exorbitant and they are not generally designed for the job.
It may feel great on charter with a group of friends but like the bottle of local plonk, may not taste so good in Portsmouth. The only place for the majority of owners to enjoy the average larger boat is somewhere else.
dom
Well-Known Member
The central point you and johnjo make is interesting. You set out to price boats in a cold rational arbitrage sense -- just as an airline would price an aircraft in terms of fuel, burn, remaining life, last service, etc. This is different to the irrationality premium attached to say new cars, which is why they depreciate so steeply in the first year or two.
Your analysis suggested that the MAB market was overpriced a few years back, which implied the existence of some "irrational" force holding them up -- most likely the misty eyed belief that older boats were built in an era where corporate margins and return on capital played second fiddle to high craftsmanship and manufacturing excellence. Then there is the entirely misplaced belief that these older boats have a better chance of surviving a big storm.
Over the past few years we have seen that bubble burst and from the data you present it would seem that prices are at least approaching fair value. Yet the belief system which previously kept prices artificially high seems largely intact and were this the stock market we could surely expect further price falls. Interesting.
Edit: there is of course nothing wrong with irrationality -- just think of parts of the art market
Your analysis suggested that the MAB market was overpriced a few years back, which implied the existence of some "irrational" force holding them up -- most likely the misty eyed belief that older boats were built in an era where corporate margins and return on capital played second fiddle to high craftsmanship and manufacturing excellence. Then there is the entirely misplaced belief that these older boats have a better chance of surviving a big storm.
Over the past few years we have seen that bubble burst and from the data you present it would seem that prices are at least approaching fair value. Yet the belief system which previously kept prices artificially high seems largely intact and were this the stock market we could surely expect further price falls. Interesting.
Edit: there is of course nothing wrong with irrationality -- just think of parts of the art market
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Shuggy
Well-Known Member
OK - point taken. But there are people out there who will provide you with CE marking for what appears to be relatively low cost - certainly low enough to justify importing from the States.
http://www.cemyboat.com/id50.html
Scotty_Tradewind
Well-Known Member
jonjo, you do continue to talk rubbish.
I've struggled to find the quote where I say 'it is a definitive blue water cruiser. '
I've antifouled my pals Nic'38'often enough and your reference to the hull shape....
'a trained eye can spot where the profile of the deep long keel was grafted onto the hull lines of a shoal draft east
cost Yankee yacht' is 'beyond my ken' as a boat builder in a past life and teacher of design in my later years.
The Nic'38, is of course, far from being the definitive blue water cruiser of today. Many of the statements made here by others, are true about her design dated from the early 60's.
Value for money is for me the deciding factor, as my sailing has always been done on a very restricted budget.
S.
pvb
Well-Known Member
And note where they say "CEmyBoat can certify older engines but please check with us first before you buy as not every older engine can be certified."
doug748
Well-Known Member
I have taken your case to heart Sandgrounder.
How about a Sun Fizz 38? This would help to keep the forum thought commission off your back and, craftily, might suit very well. Low freeboard, deep hull, directionally stable and the space you require. Lots of ocean crossing cred, handy in the rude north.
Very useful page here:
http://www.jeanneau-owners.com/GinFizz.html
How about a Sun Fizz 38? This would help to keep the forum thought commission off your back and, craftily, might suit very well. Low freeboard, deep hull, directionally stable and the space you require. Lots of ocean crossing cred, handy in the rude north.
Very useful page here:
http://www.jeanneau-owners.com/GinFizz.html
Shuggy
Well-Known Member
So check with them first... ;-)
No aft cockpit walkthrough = big tick. They just don't work under 40 feet and the excellent crew communication diagram on the Sun Fizz site demonstrates the benefit.
300l liters of water = decent.
Deep keel to fin crossover hull vintage = sensible compromise shape not that different from an HR/Malo of today.
Useful bicycle and downwind sail storage locker aft of the cockpit, why do they call it an aft cabin?
7 tons = just enough.
300sq ft mainsail and a much larger geneoa area = oh dear showing its age. A new full batten main with enlarged roach and a high clew 120% genoa couple with some code xyz down wind sail on a furler might modernize the sail plan but this sentence costs £6k.
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Sandgrounder
Well-Known Member
Doug,
Now that is the first boat from France that I have seen for some time that might appeal. I will have to research proices and how they cope when the wind gets up.
I have sailed an Oceanis 32 on the sea in a 5 rising 6 and to be honest when on the wind it kept rounding up - not impressed. A sailing friend whose judgement I trust reports the same of a Bav 34 - my prejudices are not without basis
AWBs often come with deep, shoal and centreboard keel options. In one notorious case a West Country charter boat went out with the very expensive zero keel configuration.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
It is only low cost if the boat complies easily. The two main sticking points are the stability calculations and engine certification. Highly unlikely old US boats will have design data available so you will have to commission stability tests, which the boat may not then meet. Few engines fitted to olderUS boat will be EU certified, nor will they be capable of meeting the latest emissions requirements. As you will see there is also a significant documentation requirements including an owner's handbook which has to include manuals for all equipment, much of which will also need to be CE marked. All of this makes what seems simple either impossible or uneconomic.
There are some US boats that are indeed easy to certify such as small powerboats that are already sold in the EU and a small number of high quality cruisers such as Island Packets which were sold here and are built to meet both standards with minor mods. However you will find that sort of boat no cheaper in the US than in Europe.
To give you an idea of the lack of demand for post construction assessment, the RYA which set up a unit to do just this, closed it several years ago because of lack of demand.
dimdav
Well-Known Member
I've always lusted after one of these from the states. A fair few seem to be re-engined just like this one with modern Yanmars
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1978/Downeaster-Cutter-2854081/United-States#.Vu_We03ct9M
http://www.yachtworld.co.uk/boats/1978/Downeaster-Cutter-2854081/United-States#.Vu_We03ct9M
