Which Boat

[pvb]

I disagree about having more modern boats as the higher freeboards and lighter displacement make them more skittish than something that sits in the water rather than on it. At Southampton boat show a couple of years ago I looked at a Dufour 32 and had to leave as the motion in the choppy water made it uncomfortable. Also wide flat transoms can slap waves in at a mooring or anchorage.

I had a similar decision for a choice of boat and similar budget. Eventually I decided on a Westerly Fulmar and am spending a lot on bringing her up to a modern standard. When finished my boat will have only cost a third of what a new boat would have cost.

Yet again we have the myth of new boats being "lighter displacement". If they are actually lighter, it's because they are more scientifically constructed, rather than the old regime of a man wandering around with a bucket of resin slapping a bit more here and there. But are they actually lighter? Just as an example, a Dufour 32 from a couple of years ago would weigh about 4700kg; a Westerly Fulmar weighs about 4500kg. So, not a lighter displacement.

Spending money on old boats is fine, but it's largely money down the drain, as the resale value is dictated by the market, not by what anyone might have spent on it.

 

[jonjo]

Try and get a 3/4 rig as the mainsail is more easily controlled and the headsail is smaller. I disagree about having more modern boats as the higher freeboards and lighter displacement make them more skittish than something that sits in the water rather than on it. At Southampton boat show a couple of years ago I looked at a Dufour 32 and had to leave as the motion in the choppy water made it uncomfortable. Also wide flat transoms can slap waves in at a mooring or anchorage.

I had a similar decision for a choice of boat and similar budget. Eventually I decided on a Westerly Fulmar and am spending a lot on bringing her up to a modern standard. When finished my boat will have only cost a third of what a new boat would have cost. I also believe it will still be sailing once the modern boat reaches the end of its economic repair life. The Fulmar is being regarded as a modern classic, something I doubt any modern 32ft boat will achieve. The older boats are very much a sailor's boat, whereas modern boats are designed for the accomodation first based upon the charter market demands.

A sailor's boat is one that can actually go sailing today, which is what I did in my Bavaria today. How much sailing have you done during this extensive costly refit of your Fulmar?

My old Nicholson 38 had a wave slap prone stern.

And what makes a modern yacht less maintainable than your Fulmar? The engines are the same technology but a bit more accessable in a modern awb. The rigging, sail cloth and electrics are the same, following your upgrade. Once you have replaced your ground tackle, windlass and deck fitting things are on a par. Your low quality osmosis prone GRP laminate it not inherantly better than a modern awb. Ok so you have a cute heavy teak Westerly interior if you can see it under all the drooping headlining that costs £3000 to fix.

Your Fulmar was once a modern wide beam fin keeled flighty yacht looked down on with distain by owners of composite Twisters or Nicholson 36s with their proper wooden decks. Please tell me when your Fulmar was transposed into the exemplorary serious sailing vessel she is today or will be once you have finished the refit.

 

[Sandgrounder]

Why not a Fulmar or Sadler 34. Both within budget, not troglodytic, AFAIR, and bullet proof.

Both good boats worthy of consideration. I have sailed frequently on various Fulmars racing in the Channel and cruising of the West coast of Scotland. Never sailed a Sadler 34; what are they like?

 

[Poecheng]

Never sailed a Sadler 34; what are they like?

Simply excellent

 

[jordanbasset]

Hello,

I will stress I do not want a modern French/German boat with an aft cabin under the cockpit; I find them too claustrophobic to be able to coherently describe my dislike of them. I think a centre cockpit boat may be the answer with an aft cabin that can be treated like a conservatory only opened up when needed so that I would effectively have a smaller boat when singlehanded, larger when with passengers.

Surely the OP has discounted the Sadler 34 based on his requirements, infact there are a couple of others mentioned above which would not meet his requirements, such as the Sigma 33.
Of course if the OP is now saying he does not mind an aft cockpit with sleeping underneath then I would recommend a Bavaria 34

 

[dom]

Yet again we have the myth of new boats being "lighter displacement". If they are actually lighter, it's because they are more scientifically constructed, rather than the old regime of a man wandering around with a bucket of resin slapping a bit more here and there. But are they actually lighter? Just as an example, a Dufour 32 from a couple of years ago would weigh about 4700kg; a Westerly Fulmar weighs about 4500kg. So, not a lighter displacement

Facts like this can detract from the central truth here, which is that older boats are better built, more comfortable, safer and easier to sail than the modern stuff. In the same way an old de Havilland 106 Comet is an altogether more capable plane than composite laden contemporaries such as the Boeing 787 and A350.

Speaking of which, how could anyone not smile at the romance, inginuiy and sheer bonkersness of placing two hydrogen peroxide DH Sprite booster rockets on the Comet's wings to assist with high altitude/ high temperature take offs! Marvellous stuff

 

[Kelpie]

Yet again we have the myth of new boats being "lighter displacement". If they are actually lighter, it's because they are more scientifically constructed, rather than the old regime of a man wandering around with a bucket of resin slapping a bit more here and there. But are they actually lighter? Just as an example, a Dufour 32 from a couple of years ago would weigh about 4700kg; a Westerly Fulmar weighs about 4500kg. So, not a lighter displacement.

Spending money on old boats is fine, but it's largely money down the drain, as the resale value is dictated by the market, not by what anyone might have spent on it.

A 32' MAB may well weigh the same as a 32' AWB- but I don't think LOA is the right comparison here. The AWB is a much 'bigger' boat, in terms of volume, so yes I think there is something behind the perception that older boats may be more heavily constructed.

It's a shame that so many of the replies on this thread are completely ignoring the OP's request. He wants an older boat and there are loads of them about, so it's not exactly impossible to give him suggestions. If his heart says no to an AWB then who are we to say he is wrong?

 

[pvb]

Facts like this can detract from the central truth here, which is that older boats are better built, more comfortable, safer and easier to sail than the modern stuff.

I understand that you're trying to be deliberately controversial, but it would be much better if there was some element of credibility in your claims!

 

[Sandgrounder]

Surely the OP has discounted the Sadler 34 based on his requirements, infact there are a couple of others mentioned above which would not meet his requirements, such as the Sigma 33.
Of course if the OP is now saying he does not mind an aft cockpit with sleeping underneath then I would recommend a Bavaria 34

I'm not saying that I don't mind a beneath the cockpit aft cabin; if people make the effort to respond then I'm happy enough to look but I think it most unlikely that I would buy such a boat such is my dislike of confined spaces!

 

[Sandgrounder]

A 32' MAB may well weigh the same as a 32' AWB- but I don't think LOA is the right comparison here. The AWB is a much 'bigger' boat, in terms of volume, so yes I think there is something behind the perception that older boats may be more heavily constructed.

It's a shame that so many of the replies on this thread are completely ignoring the OP's request. He wants an older boat and there are loads of them about, so it's not exactly impossible to give him suggestions. If his heart says no to an AWB then who are we to say he is wrong?

Thank You very much: I knew someone would get it!
As for PVB's point about money down the drain; clearly the thing to do is find one where the previous owner has done the refitting/ spending such as this appears to be: -http://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/boats-for-sale/1979-westerly-conway-36-sloop-5393573

 

[Tradewinds]

Vancouver 32 or an early 34 would be my choice (one 34 for sale asking £45000) - easily driven yet being beautifully directionally stable with a cutter rig means ease of short handling.

Vancouver 32 for sale here - was taken as px against another yacht I believe - so might be good for a cheeky offer. . .

http://www.clarkeandcarter.co.uk/br...maxlength=&SimpleSearch=Search+Boats+for+Sale

 

[jonjo]

It's a shame that so many of the replies on this thread are completely ignoring the OP's request.

We are challenging the provocative premise of the opening post i.e. modern boats are horrible and their owners must be weird troglodytes. Someone on a genuine quest for advice would not start off by insulting 80% of forum members, this thread was doomed to failure the second the OP hit send.

Consider this analogy

"Hello people I am looking for advice on purchasing a personal motor vehicle transportation device. I drive mostly on my own but sometimes I carry 3 passengers and we go on multi day tours so the ability to store 2 to 3 suitcases would be very useful. The vehicle will be used principally for Tesco shopping and my commute to work, however I live in the countryside so a highish driving position and good antilock breaks are desirable. So far I have identified an MOT failure 40 ton Bedford low loader HGV truck made in 1972 as I particularly like the bunk in the cab above the drivers seat. I guess the low loader will be useful for carrying my mates suitcases when we go on tour and I should be able to find a way to attach the Tesco carrier bags on the low-loader as well. However I have always hankered after a chopper motorbike, so really I am open to all ideas except please, please do not recommend anything with 4 wheels. I once had a ride in a 4 wheel motor car and every time we went around a corner I slid across the back seat. Four wheel motor cars must be the most dumb invention ever and I will absolutely not consider one".

In road transport terms the OP of this thread has insulted all car owners and solicited advice solely from retired HGV truckers, Hells Angles and members of the Reliant Robin Appreciation society.

 

[Sandgrounder]

We are challenging the provocative premise of the opening post i.e. modern boats are horrible and their owners must be weird troglodytes. Someone on a genuine quest for advice would not start off by insulting 80% of forum members, this thread was doomed to failure the second the OP hit send.

Consider this analogy

"Hello people I am looking for advice on purchasing a personal motor vehicle transportation device. I drive mostly on my own but sometimes I carry 3 passengers and we go on multi day tours so the ability to store 2 to 3 suitcases would be very useful. The vehicle will be used principally for Tesco shopping and my commute to work, however I live in the countryside so a highish driving position and good antilock breaks are desirable. So far I have identified an MOT failure 40 ton Bedford low loader HGV truck made in 1972 as I particularly like the bunk in the cab above the drivers seat. I guess the low loader will be useful for carrying my mates suitcases when we go on tour and I should be able to find a way to attach the Tesco carrier bags on the low-loader as well. However I have always hankered after a chopper motorbike, so really I am open to all ideas except please, please do not recommend anything with 4 wheels. I once had a ride in a 4 wheel motor car and every time we went around a corner I slid across the back seat. Four wheel motor cars must be the most dumb invention ever and I will absolutely not consider one".

In road transport terms the OP of this thread has insulted all car owners and solicited advice solely from retired HGV truckers, Hells Angles and members of the Reliant Robin Appreciation society.

Jonjo,

I do not believe that I have insulted anybody. I have merely stated a preference not to have to sleep with the deckhead close above my face because I suffer from claustrophobia. The degree to which this affects me is demonstrated by the fact that on the one occasion when the only berth available was in an under-cockpit bunk I ended up in my oilies in the cockpit dozing in the drizzle because it seemed eminently preferable to the bunk. This is not an attempt to denigrate anyone else's preference; simply to state what mine is.
If you wanted to contribute positively rather than simply pick a fight with anyone and everyone, you might start by describing the pro's and cons of your Nic 38 but that would involve being a positive member of this community rather than some sort of cyber nutter!

 

[Kelpie]

We are challenging the provocative premise of the opening post i.e. modern boats are horrible and their owners must be weird troglodytes. Someone on a genuine quest for advice would not start off by insulting 80% of forum members, this thread was doomed to failure the second the OP hit send.

Consider this analogy

"Hello people I am looking for advice on purchasing a personal motor vehicle transportation device. I drive mostly on my own but sometimes I carry 3 passengers and we go on multi day tours so the ability to store 2 to 3 suitcases would be very useful. The vehicle will be used principally for Tesco shopping and my commute to work, however I live in the countryside so a highish driving position and good antilock breaks are desirable. So far I have identified an MOT failure 40 ton Bedford low loader HGV truck made in 1972 as I particularly like the bunk in the cab above the drivers seat. I guess the low loader will be useful for carrying my mates suitcases when we go on tour and I should be able to find a way to attach the Tesco carrier bags on the low-loader as well. However I have always hankered after a chopper motorbike, so really I am open to all ideas except please, please do not recommend anything with 4 wheels. I once had a ride in a 4 wheel motor car and every time we went around a corner I slid across the back seat. Four wheel motor cars must be the most dumb invention ever and I will absolutely not consider one".

In road transport terms the OP of this thread has insulted all car owners and solicited advice solely from retired HGV truckers, Hells Angles and members of the Reliant Robin Appreciation society.

I don't think the analogy works terribly well. The type of boat the OP is considering was actually designed for pretty much the task he needs it to do.
Oh, and don't take everything so personally.

 

[Jonas]

... Hells Angles ...

Acute or obtuse?

 

[Tranona]

Jonjo,

I do not believe that I have insulted anybody. I have merely stated a preference not to have to sleep with the deckhead close above my face because I suffer from claustrophobia. The degree to which this affects me is demonstrated by the fact that on the one occasion when the only berth available was in an under-cockpit bunk I ended up in my oilies in the cockpit dozing in the drizzle because it seemed eminently preferable to the bunk. This is not an attempt to denigrate anyone else's preference; simply to state what mine is.
If you wanted to contribute positively rather than simply pick a fight with anyone and everyone, you might start by describing the pro's and cons of your Nic 38 but that would involve being a positive member of this community rather than some sort of cyber nutter!

Not all aft cabins are like that. The one in my Bav has more headroom and standing room than the forecabin - but on any boat you can always sleep in the saloon. Aft cabins on centre cockpit boats mostly have more space, but are usually bigger boats (35'+) and less convenient for single handing.

Leaving aside the cabin issue, it is worth bearing in mind the features that make a good single handing boat. The two key things to consider are arrangements for parking the boat, and controlling sails. The first depends on your permanent mooring as this is what you use most often (at least the typical leisure sailor). If in a marina there is no doubt that a modern fin keel spade rudder boat is easier to manage. High topsides are not really such a problem except for the windage as you can arrange your mooring lines in such a way, for example on a pole so that you can attach the boat to the pontoon without jumping off. If on a swinging mooring, perhaps a long kel or heavy displacement boat with lower freeboard is better, particularly if it has good stemhead arrangements.

Most boats of the size we are talking about here can be sailed in light conditions relatively easily, but to be really usable they need to be set up for easy handling from the cockpit, particularly sail controls from the helm. So fractional rigs with small or self tacking headsails, all lines led aft, mainsheet and jib sheet winches accessible from the helm. Furling sails - both jib and main are a big advantage.

Extra aids such as bow thruster, electric windlass with remote and autopilot all help take stress out of single handed sailing if you want to do the sort of things crewed boats can do.

If you judge a boat by using this sort of check list, you will find that a wide range of boats can fit the bill - but it is far easier to achieve it with a modern cruising boat where the main developments in design have been to make them easier to handle. This is driven by the charter market where users are often novices and the fact that new boat buyers are predominately older.

You really have to experience how easy a modern 33-37' boat is to handle, both sail and power to appreciate why they are such an advance over older style boats, and so popular with single handers and couples.

 

[Sandgrounder]

Not all aft cabins are like that. The one in my Bav has more headroom and standing room than the forecabin - but on any boat you can always sleep in the saloon. Aft cabins on centre cockpit boats mostly have more space, but are usually bigger boats (35'+) and less convenient for single handing.

Leaving aside the cabin issue, it is worth bearing in mind the features that make a good single handing boat. The two key things to consider are arrangements for parking the boat, and controlling sails. The first depends on your permanent mooring as this is what you use most often (at least the typical leisure sailor). If in a marina there is no doubt that a modern fin keel spade rudder boat is easier to manage. High topsides are not really such a problem except for the windage as you can arrange your mooring lines in such a way, for example on a pole so that you can attach the boat to the pontoon without jumping off. If on a swinging mooring, perhaps a long kel or heavy displacement boat with lower freeboard is better, particularly if it has good stemhead arrangements.

Most boats of the size we are talking about here can be sailed in light conditions relatively easily, but to be really usable they need to be set up for easy handling from the cockpit, particularly sail controls from the helm. So fractional rigs with small or self tacking headsails, all lines led aft, mainsheet and jib sheet winches accessible from the helm. Furling sails - both jib and main are a big advantage.

Extra aids such as bow thruster, electric windlass with remote and autopilot all help take stress out of single handed sailing if you want to do the sort of things crewed boats can do.

If you judge a boat by using this sort of check list, you will find that a wide range of boats can fit the bill - but it is far easier to achieve it with a modern cruising boat where the main developments in design have been to make them easier to handle. This is driven by the charter market where users are often novices and the fact that new boat buyers are predominately older.

You really have to experience how easy a modern 33-37' boat is to handle, both sail and power to appreciate why they are such an advance over older style boats, and so popular with single handers and couples.

Tranona,

Thank you for this; it gives food for thought. What model is the Bavaria you speak of with such good headroom aft?

I will be on a swinging mooring but clearly will need to be able to come alongside wherever I might find myself.
Sail handling will be somewhat a matter of what boat I opt for in the end but I anticipate that I may have to relocate winches if I end up with wheel steering. The other possibility might be to swap the location of the primary winches and secondaries; I don't know if this is possible but it would certainly resolve difficulties of reaching them on many boats.
Do you find any reliability/ jamming issues with a furling main? I have seen a "behind the mast" furling system but I think it was a do it yourself system cobbled together from whatever was easily available. I can see it would be less efficient in sailing terms but it has a certain appeal; difficulties resolved more easily and so on.

 

[Tranona]

My current boat is a new 33, which has more headroom in the aft cabin than my previous 2001 37, but partly because the stern is wider and the cabin is relatively further forward. When I was looking for a new boat last year, ease of handling and space were top of my list and the boat I chose is far and away the best of the 4 main contenders (Hanse, Beneteau and Jeanneau were the others). Important for me as I am 6'3", 100kg and in my 8th decade. Fortunately I had a lot of experience of single and short handed sailing with my old 37 so knew what was important. In fact would probably have kept the 37 if it had not been such a handful in my tight berth.

So new boat has in mast (same as the old one), but much smaller jib and bigger main. Never had any problem with the Selden in mast - you just need to follow the instructions and keep it well maintained. The latest one is even better than the older one with some useful minor changes such as roller outhaul. There are two pairs of sheet winches and the aft pair are easily reached from the helm, the wheel is relatively small and easy to walk around, mainsheet is to an eye on the cockpit table in front of the binnacle. Quite straightforward to short tack up and down Poole Harbour if you fancy.

Also fitted a bow thruster, again to cope with the tight berth. Although I try to avoid jumping off the boat, it does have gate guard wires at the cockpit so that getting on and off is easy (and a drop down transom!).

Although my budget allowed a new boat, much of this could be achieved with an older model such as the early 2000s Bav 34 suggested earlier and featured in YM a couple of months ago. Well in your budget. The key, as I said is figuring out what you need to handle the boat on your own and paying attention to the details. Plus of course recognising the limitations, although in reality once you get confidence in your boat you can be quite adventurous!

Hope this helps.

 

[richardbrennan]

You might look at the Westerly Seahawk and Moody Excel 34. Both have Tardis like interiors that would not bother your claustrophobia. I must say they're not my personal choice as personally I find centre cockpit boats of this size give you the impression that you are sitting on them rather than in them when sailing. I have some friends with a Moody Excel 34 up for sail, it's in almost as new condition, except for the sails which are the originals, but having said that, they have had very little use! PM me if interested,it's on the Hamble.

I would endorse the Fulmar, a great boat to sail, and as Dylan has said, now considered a classic.

 

[pvb]

You might look at the Westerly Seahawk and Moody Excel 34. Both have Tardis like interiors that would not bother your claustrophobia. I must say they're not my personal choice as personally I find centre cockpit boats of this size give you the impression that you are sitting on them rather than in them when sailing. I have some friends with a Moody Excel 34 up for sail, it's in almost as new condition, except for the sails which are the originals, but having said that, they have had very little use! PM me if interested,it's on the Hamble.

I would endorse the Fulmar, a great boat to sail, and as Dylan has said, now considered a classic.

The Seahawk certainly makes you feel that you're sitting on it, and the climb down into the accommodation is like going down into a cellar! We had a trial sail in one, and were pleased to get off it.

I'm still fascinated by the concept of old and tired boats being described as "classic", do they appeal to the same sort of people who love old Cortinas?