What's your opinion about clipping on?

[snowleopard]

Eric Tabarly, one of the greatest ocean sailors, never clipped on in his life.

And when he eventually fell overboard his novice crew failed to recover him and he drowned.

 

[Kukri]

I have a low performance cruising yacht; I always clip on.

 

[Leighb]

Eric Tabarly, one of the greatest ocean sailors, never clipped on in his life.

And when he eventually fell overboard his novice crew failed to recover him and he drowned.

Rob James also went overboard and drowned as crew were unable to recover him soon enough.

 

[sailorman]

Pete & John,

if "the crews of J class boats regularly fall in" - no big surprise considering the cambered decks & no guardrails - someone has to ask if 21st century design should step in, lovely as these boats are.

One thought is the 'Latchway' system, whereby a person clipped can march from end to end, the thing just steps over fastenings; my 22' boat doesn't need this as I've found central harness points by the mast reach both ways, but I'd seriously think about it if having a larger boat again.

I'm not sure about towing a MOB on a bowline loop at 15 knots, but I do like the old idea of trailing a long thin line on single or short-handed boats; the original idea was to disable wind vanes to stall the boat, but it could easily be rigged over the pushpit to pull an electronic autopilot off the tiller pin with the same result.

MOB with a man & wife team is hugely & horribly different to having a big racing crew, when I did my ym offshore I was warned " don't tell the examiner you only sail with your girlfriend, or he'll make you do the MOB drill alone ": as that would be the conditions I'd be in, I thought 'fair enough' and did it.

It's easy to mistake the conditions of one's exam with a lot of strong guys around, compared to being alone in the middle of the oggin with SWMBO over the side and not knowing her PIN number, or even worse for several reasons vice versa.

One thought is the 'Latchway' system, whereby a person clipped can march from end to end,

i have a double set hanging up in my garage from a previous boat.
too short for present boat but a good idea

 

[Kukri]

Curiously, either Tabarly broke one of the golden rules for handling a gaff cutter, or his novice crew did not understand his instructions - he was swept over by the gaff whilst lowering it in order to set the trysail. There is a standard procedure for this (which needless to say is nowhere in the RYA syllabus) - you trap the topsail sheet, or the vang if no topsail is carried, round a cleat in the cockpit to "tame" the gaff until you can smother it.

 

[Pete R]

Hopefully some ski boat owner can enlighten us.

If it helps I owned a couple Watersports centre in Greece for 12 years and was a BWSF instructor.

The slowest you would go for a normal size person on big ski's would be just over 10'ish mph. Fastest would be a mid 40's for barefoot.

Falling off is unpleasant at any speed especially if you don't shut your gob and beginners have a habit of not letting go of the rope so it is imperative to stop the boat immediately and engage reverse for a quick burst. Even so the pull backwards on the boat is very strong and the skier becomes a submarine for a short time, even with a buoyancy aid on. A big bloke not letting go can almost stop the boat dead! Just think what happens when you chuck a bucket on a rope over the side at only a couple of knots.

So being dragged through the water at 15 knots on a boat that has no effective instant reverse will drag them underwater till the boat stops or something/someone breaks.

 

[Roberto]

The slowest you would go for a normal size person on big ski's would be just over 10'ish mph. Fastest would be a mid 40's for barefoot.

Falling off is unpleasant at any speed especially if you don't shut your gob and beginners have a habit of not letting go of the rope so it is imperative to stop the boat immediately and engage reverse for a quick burst. Even so the pull backwards on the boat is very strong and the skier becomes a submarine for a short time, even with a buoyancy aid on. A big bloke not letting go can almost stop the boat dead! Just think what happens when you chuck a bucket on a rope over the side at only a couple of knots.

So being dragged through the water at 15 knots on a boat that has no effective instant reverse will drag them underwater till the boat stops or something/someone breaks.

thank you very much, most instructive

 

[Seajet]

If it helps I owned a couple Watersports centre in Greece for 12 years and was a BWSF instructor.

The slowest you would go for a normal size person on big ski's would be just over 10'ish mph. Fastest would be a mid 40's for barefoot.

Falling off is unpleasant at any speed especially if you don't shut your gob and beginners have a habit of not letting go of the rope so it is imperative to stop the boat immediately and engage reverse for a quick burst. Even so the pull backwards on the boat is very strong and the skier becomes a submarine for a short time, even with a buoyancy aid on. A big bloke not letting go can almost stop the boat dead! Just think what happens when you chuck a bucket on a rope over the side at only a couple of knots.

So being dragged through the water at 15 knots on a boat that has no effective instant reverse will drag them underwater till the boat stops or something/someone breaks.

And if someone works out how to stop suddenly, our hero MOB gets a tattoe on the forehead such as " SeaGirl of Poole " only readable in a mirror, which I suppose might at least get the Medical Examinor intrigued.

 

[westernman]

Curiously, either Tabarly broke one of the golden rules for handling a gaff cutter, or his novice crew did not understand his instructions - he was swept over by the gaff whilst lowering it in order to set the trysail. There is a standard procedure for this (which needless to say is nowhere in the RYA syllabus) - you trap the topsail sheet, or the vang if no topsail is carried, round a cleat in the cockpit to "tame" the gaff until you can smother it.

On my gaff cutter, you set up the topping lift on the boom on both sides. The gaff can't go anywhere once it is halfway down as it is held between the two topping lifts. The boom is much heavier than the gaff so the gaff is very effectively kept under control. The topping lifts also keep the sail more or less under control so you don't end up with a heap of canvas blowing around.

 

[prv]

On my gaff cutter, you set up the topping lift on the boom on both sides. The gaff can't go anywhere once it is halfway down as it is held between the two topping lifts. The boom is much heavier than the gaff so the gaff is very effectively kept under control.

On mine too. Although it is possible for the end of the gaff to sneak past the topping lifts if the throat is let down much more quickly than the peak. Usually happens with novice crew "helping"

Pete

 

[GrahamM376]

so being dragged through the water at 15 knots on a boat that has no effective instant reverse will drag them underwater till the boat stops or something/someone breaks.

Even at 4-5 kts people have drowned at the end of life lines because the boats weren't stopped quickly. The chest harness anchor point means you get turned on your back and towed under and the forces are too great for one person (particularly a wife?) to drag you out of the water with the boat moving.

 

[Giblets]

Rob James also went overboard and drowned as crew were unable to recover him soon enough.

Not strictly correct. He was actually recovered back to the side of the boat but, owing to the design of the hull (Colt Cars GB - Formula 1 racing trimaran) the crew were unable to get him back in deck and he perished.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Although your points regarding systems which don't allow you to fall overboard are valid, in some circumstances, such a system just isn't possible in all circumstances.

Furthermore, your suggestion to have a knife to cut yourself free sounds good in theory, but I don't think you understand what being dragged along on a harness at high speed is really like. You would have to be superhuman - or VERY lucky to manage to sort things out - get the knife out and cut yourself free at even five or ten knots let alone any sort of real speed at all. And some of the performance yachts we are talking about in this thread will be travelling at well over 15 knots at times.

On ordinary cruising boats I am all for always clipping on at night times and whenever conditions deteriorate, but have a look at some of the films of high performance yachts sailing, and have some imagination as to what being towed on a harness would be like before you suggest that clipping on a high speed machine would be safe.

Sounds like a good argument for a long-keeler to me..

 

[Seajet]

Sounds like a good argument for a long-keeler to me..

Not sure about the speeds, but I thought long keelers still go out at night ?!

 

[webcraft]

Even at 4-5 kts people have drowned at the end of life lines because the boats weren't stopped quickly. The chest harness anchor point means you get turned on your back and towed under and the forces are too great for one person (particularly a wife?) to drag you out of the water with the boat moving.

You make it sound quite common. Do you have any references?

I would imagine that the number of people drowned because they were not clipped on is much higher than the number of people drowned because they were clipped on - but I am prepared to change my opinion if anyone can show me some compelling figures.

- W

 

[GrahamM376]

You make it sound quite common. Do you have any references?

I doubt that it's very common and more likely to be a problem for solo sailors or couples.

I remember reading an article/news story some years ago about a sailing couple, the guy had gone overboard and his safety line was long enough for him to be in the water. Instead of stopping the boat (easy with hindsight), his wife had tried without success to haul him out of the water but he drowned. There was reference to a previous similar case and the moral of the article was to keep life lines as short as possible.

I've sometimes thought about removing moving my jackstays from the side decks and relocating nearer the centre line to minimise chance of going over the side but, not got around to doing it. With everything led aft, it's rare to have to leave the cockpit anyway.

 

[webcraft]

I doubt that it's very common and more likely to be a problem for solo sailors or couples.

I remember reading an article/news story some years ago about a sailing couple, the guy had gone overboard and his safety line was long enough for him to be in the water. Instead of stopping the boat (easy with hindsight), his wife had tried without success to haul him out of the water but he drowned. There was reference to a previous similar case and the moral of the article was to keep life lines as short as possible.

I've sometimes thought about removing moving my jackstays from the side decks and relocating nearer the centre line to minimise chance of going over the side but, not got around to doing it. With everything led aft, it's rare to have to leave the cockpit anyway.

It dependes on the size of the boat, but on Fairwinds I have often clipped on to the jackstay on the opposite side of the boat to that where work was required. This involves unclipping and reclipping to get past the mast, of course, but is an easy solution on a small boat when only going as far as the mast.

- W

 

[BobPrell]

I would imagine that the number of people drowned because they were not clipped on is much higher than the number of people drowned because they were clipped on. . . . .

So would I. I would think they did not drown because clipping on kept them in the boat, which is the whole thing about boating.

One does one's best to stay in the boat.

I would be going for some arrangement that lets me get near the edge of the boat and no more. Like GrahamM376 I think jackstays should be near the centreline.

One thing I do not like about the "everything leads to the cockpit" idea is that people lose their skills at working outside it. That may become neccessary at some time.

I am amazed that this thread has lasted to post 36 before focussing on the essential.

 

[westernman]

The jackstays on my boat run very close to the centre line. The lines for clipping on (three point so you never need to be unclipped) are short so that you cannot go overboard when clipped on to the jackstay or the points for clipping on in the cockpit or next to the mast. You can do pretty much everything clipped on (e.g. reef, stow sails etc).

It is rare that we clip on (may be three times in five years) - the motion of a Pilot Cutter is such that it is very easy to stand up on the foredeck - even in the roughest of weather. If you always keep a hand for the boat you are never in danger of loosing your balance. The decks are enormous - it is a very safe boat to be in, in a storm.

 

[flaming]

I've been thinking about this for a few days, and I don't think there is an easy answer.

The MAIB are currently investigating (at consultation stage) the tragic loss of life in a RORC race last year from the yacht Lion.
If I recall correctly that was an incident of a MOB still attached. Given that Lion is not what I would term a high performance boat, I think the report when it is published will probably profide some food for thought on this subject.