What's the fascination with long keels?

[john_morris_uk]

Isn't this yachting's equivalent of the "how many angels can dance on the head of the pin" argument; and just as pointless? (The argument I mean, not the pin ). An interesting subject but hardly worth fighting about (unlike, say Brexit or the rule of law ).

You're quite right. Its a discussion worth having though. I was over egging it when I sigh 'fighting for'.

However I'm left with the feeling that some people who want to go off sailing round the world end up buying boats that are ok, but they discount other boats that might be more suitable because of this 'holy grail of a long keel'.

Let me try another summary of my feelings:

Long keels boats can be wonderful to sail short handed and live on board, but they can also be slow and with poky accomodation down below and some are pigs to sail.

Some fin keel boats are a nightmare to sail short handed across oceans, but some fin keeled boats are a delight.

The real problem is that all yacht design is a compromise. Internal volume vs sailing characteristics vs speed vs ability to tack etc etc. Its impossible to say 'this is better then that' except in the most general terms. I suspect I've twisted a few tails for a couple of reasons. Firstly people like to justify their own decisions and their own pride and joy. Secondly, people don't like traditional 'rules of thumb' being challenged. I suspect that most sailors are inherently conservative regarding yacht design and if the old sage in the bar says you need a long keel to cross an ocean, people nod in agreement. He must know what he's talking about as he's sailed round the world.

(Bear in mind I can introduce you to someone who's sailed as crew over 4000 miles across oceans and barely knows how to sail at all!)

 

[rotrax]

Lets try to finish this up.

The last-AFAIK- long keel boats to be made in any numbers -single figure thousands-were my choice of boat, Island Packets.

The designer, Bob Johnson realised that to sell lots of boats he would need ALL his boats to have a shallow enough draught for the depth and a low enough mast to fit under the non lifting bridges on the American Intracoastal Waterway. Being able to be managed by a husband and wife/partner crew was also high on the list. This came with design constraints but up to 4 years ago they were selling well, old fashioned or not.

The company failed late last year but their boats are a byword for quality build. They dont go astern easily and because of their shallow thin keels they make lots of leeway. Some owners have had aluminium holding tanks fail, an expensive fix.

Despite this, owners tend to keep them for a long period, and often, like us, change for a larger one.

One of the major Jeanneu dealers in the UK has one as his personal boat.

They are easy to sail with a small crew, they have a gentle motion and dont slam much-if they do you should really be alongside. They hold station when picking up a mooring, due I think to their weight.

But-not as many on here claim for long keelers-they have very spacious accomadation. Huge, in fact. The somewhat odd cream colour helps with sun glare-most are used in the tropics-and the ventilation, refigeration and services are top quality.

For what our current boat cost nothing approached what we wanted in quality and accomadation.
We looked at the Warquiez pilot house 41, Nauticats, HR's and Njiads, as well as older offerings.

The fact it has a long keel was not material to our choice, and was not an issue.

First Mate is IC steering and after our lovely IP 350 Jess, Jarrow Lily is only different in the extra four feet of length and the extra windage from the huge pilothouse. This is somewhat offset by the bowthruster-never had one before and First Mate quite likes it-result!

A sometime mentor of ours who is a YM examiner and has sailed in excess of a quarter of a million miles told us that he liked our IP 350 very much, leeway and all.

He especially liked the cocktail cabinet behind the fold up table......................................

 

[john_morris_uk]

Lets try to finish this up.

The last-AFAIK- long keel boats to be made in any numbers -single figure thousands-were my choice of boat, Island Packets.

The designer, Bob Johnson realised that to sell lots of boats he would need ALL his boats to have a shallow enough draught for the depth and a low enough mast to fit under the non lifting bridges on the American Intracoastal Waterway. Being able to be managed by a husband and wife/partner crew was also high on the list. This came with design constraints but up to 4 years ago they were selling well, old fashioned or not.

The company failed late last year but their boats are a byword for quality build. They dont go astern easily and because of their shallow thin keels they make lots of leeway. Some owners have had aluminium holding tanks fail, an expensive fix.

Despite this, owners tend to keep them for a long period, and often, like us, change for a larger one.

One of the major Jeanneu dealers in the UK has one as his personal boat.

They are easy to sail with a small crew, they have a gentle motion and dont slam much-if they do you should really be alongside. They hold station when picking up a mooring, due I think to their weight.

But-not as many on here claim for long keelers-they have very spacious accomadation. Huge, in fact. The somewhat odd cream colour helps with sun glare-most are used in the tropics-and the ventilation, refigeration and services are top quality.

For what our current boat cost nothing approached what we wanted in quality and accomadation.
We looked at the Warquiez pilot house 41, Nauticats, HR's and Njiads, as well as older offerings.

The fact it has a long keel was not material to our choice, and was not an issue.

First Mate is IC steering and after our lovely IP 350 Jess, Jarrow Lily is only different in the extra four feet of length and the extra windage from the huge pilothouse. This is somewhat offset by the bowthruster-never had one before and First Mate quite likes it-result!

A sometime mentor of ours who is a YM examiner and has sailed in excess of a quarter of a million miles told us that he liked our IP 350 very much, leeway and all.

He especially liked the cocktail cabinet behind the fold up table......................................

Lets try to finish this up by extolling the virtues of an Island Packet is a bit of a vain hope.

We too have friends with an Island Packet. They concede that it doesn't sail very well but the interior layout and amount of space makes for easy living aboard.

You forgot to mention that Island Packets are notorious for NOT being close winded. (Sheeting angle of the genoa to the genoa car on the toe rail doesn't help.

Build quality has diddly squat to do with it. You could have a boat that was an ocean flyer and well mannered in every respect that hadn't been built well - and there again you could have an Island Packet.

Horses for courses and my hope that everyone is more aware that when you buy a boat you buy into a particular compromise. My idee fixee is that some of the compromises you get with long keels aren't a necessary precondition of well mannered boats. You might (if you choose with care) get a well designed fin keel boat with all the advantages and none of the disadvantages. You might no be able to afford the alternative, but you might get lucky. Or you might find yourself a long keeled boat and put up with the slow speed handling and slightly challenged windward performance and greater wetted area.

I will admit that in light airs our fin keeled boat is heavy and a slow old thing but we love her and I hope we have some eyes open to her deficiencies as well as her attractions.

 

[rotrax]

What I tried to say-perhaps not very well-is that, as YOU have also agreed, all sailing boats have some level of compromise.

The IP compromises suit First Mate and I very well. We can get into Wexford at neaps-try that with a fin keeler. The accomadation is great, as are the huge refrigeration capacity, the island bed in the forecabin, the bronze through hulls and seacocks plus the general eqipment is first class. All cables are pre-run for major upgrades or optional gear.

I dont get too wound up if she is not as close winded as other boats-we are retired, time does not press like it used to and if the wind dont serve we use the 110 BHP turbodiesel which at cruising speed gives 1000 NM range.

If there was another boat that was long fin and skeg that gave us what WE consider to be right for our use I would consider it, if the price was right.

The nearest are the newer Nauticats, but they were too rich for us.

We are not wedded to a long keel, we are fully aware of the disadvantages, and the disadvantages of the IP modest rig.

But, as far as sail boats go, having extensive experience of three popular types-deep wing fin and spade rudder, longer shallower fin with skeg supported rudder and two IP's which have Bob Johnsons full foil keel-long and thin-and fully supported rudders, we are happy-very happy-with the latter.

Warts and all...............................................

 

[GHA]

However I'm left with the feeling that some people who want to go off sailing round the world end up buying boats that are ok, but they discount other boats that might be more suitable because of this 'holy grail of a long keel'.

Possible but living on the hook with other cruisers a rare event I would think.

They tend to know what's what. Maybe the exact opposite occurs more often, the sort of boats which meet the checklist (especially on a budget! ) will tend to be older boats/designs.
Anyway, it's a bit of a non starter discussion in many ways, what's a benefit for long distance cruising doesn't count for weekend sailing and vice versa . Who cares what your weekend boat will be like if you add another couple of cruising kit and provisions, likewise for a cruiser why bother if the trip takes another day - ocean passages are measure in how many things broke, not speed

 

[JumbleDuck]

The IP compromises suit First Mate and I very well. We can get into Wexford at neaps-try that with a fin keeler. The accomadation is great, as are the huge refrigeration capacity, the island bed in the forecabin, the bronze through hulls and seacocks plus the general eqipment is first class. All cables are pre-run for major upgrades or optional gear.

Apart from getting into Wexford on neaps, what does any of that have to do with the keel?

 

[rotrax]

There were no other boats that gave us what we have in the price range. They were of equal or similar size and possibly build quality, but were out of reach.

I suspect many happy boat owners, like us, got the best bang for their buck and sod what keel it had!

Which is the point I was trying to make. We did not choose a long keel, we fell in love with a boat that was what we wanted in most respects, not all.

For us, it was the best compromise. And is'nt that what boat choice is all about? The OP says " Whats the facination with long keels? "

Well for us, there is no facination-our boat of choice came with a long keel. We have made our bed and now we must lie in it.

And very nice it is too. And the keel wont EVER fall off...........................................

 

[BobPrell]

My favourite primer on cruising sailboats is Danny Greene's Cruising Sailboat Kinetics. I have just had a skim thru it for the umpteenth time.

there are copies available on Amazon.uk but no reader reviews which is a surprise. It has been around since 1984.

The illustrations show clearly what sort of keel the boats have but DG almost never actually draws one's attention to keel length.

He shows a Vancouver 50 with only 4.5ft draught. He only mentions its long keel because that allows a lot of ballast to be down low without complicated construction.

I would say a lot of qualities, good and bad, in this thread are not directly related to length of keel. Jumbleduck has succinctly brought this to our attention.

I don't think there is some huge irrational long-keel rooting squad out there.

 

[GHA]

However I'm left with the feeling that some people who want to go off sailing round the world end up buying boats that are ok, but they discount other boats that might be more suitable because of this 'holy grail of a long keel'.

I suspect many happy boat owners, like us, got the best bang for their buck and sod what keel it had!

Which is the point I was trying to make. We did not choose a long keel, we fell in love with a boat that was what we wanted in most respects, not all.

I suspect for most that's the case, the choice of keel/design wasn't really on the wish list, but just happened to be a result of what was available which met most of the wish list.

John, does this allay your fears that cruisers are being forced into a bad decision by some kind of perceived dogma?
I wouldn't worry too much, they tend to be a pragmatic sensible bunch capable of looking at the bigger picture. :encouragement:

 

[john_morris_uk]

I suspect for most that's the case, the choice of keel/design wasn't really on the wish list, but just happened to be a result of what was available which met most of the wish list.

John, does this allay your fears that cruisers are being forced into a bad decision by some kind of perceived dogma?
I wouldn't worry too much, they tend to be a pragmatic sensible bunch capable of looking at the bigger picture. :encouragement:

I've read through most of this long running thread and there have been some interesting points made. One or two wild assertions and a couple of reactionary responses.

I think I've made my point though and I'll leave it at that.

I note that the thread does feature as one of the popular threads in YBW that has had lots of views and been contributed to many times by many people so perhaps its kept some people amused for a while. Hopefully made a few more think and hopefully enlightened one or two.

 

[GHA]

I've read through most of this long running thread and there have been some interesting points made. One or two wild assertions and a couple of reactionary responses.

.

Ah, come on now, don't be too hard on yourself

Though the very people who the thread was sort of aimed at, long term cruisers, tend to be the more flexible and pragmatic ones in their choices. The diehards seem to be closer to home.
Interesting discussion though,

 

[Kukri]

A type of boat to be wary of is the "late long keel racer". By that, I mean boats with a fairly short, deep, keel, and with the rudder attached to that short keel, very often inboard of an immersed counter.

Ship on board one of these - often by very illustrious designers - Sparkman and Stephens, Fred Parker, Laurent Giles... and you will have a steering experience that you will not soon forget!

The separation of the rudder from the keel was done as long ago as the 1890's, very notably by Charles Sibbick who was the outstanding designer of small Length and Sail Area Rule raters. He went in for deep fin keels and separate rudders on his day racers whilst his rare cruisers often had a profile a bit like the Sixties "moderate fin and skeg" designs like the Contessa 32.