Tradewind 35
New Member
But has an interesting point about mortality. Long-keel yacht prices have crashed. Bit like 19th Century English watercolours and brown furniture.
What's the fascination with long keels?
- Thread starter john_morris_uk
- Start date
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
All users of everything defend their decision. See any anchor, engine, why-brokers-are-gos, why-brokers-suck or who uses swinging moorings any more thread for evidence.
Tranona
Well-Known Member
Yes I know. Not surprising that a Tradewind owner (assuming his name reflects his boat) claims to find the thread bizarre and draws on a 30 year old tome as evidence to support his choice.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
True, but I've sailed (and continue to sail) all sorts of boat with all sorts of keels. We've owned long keelers and bilge keelers and fin keelers and I've sailed traditional work boats and lifting keel boats and one or two very racy boats.
If I had limitless money and could ask for a bespoke cruising yacht to be built I know one things for sure. It definitely would NOT have a long keel. There's no advantage over a moderate fin that's well designed on a good hull form. There are lots of advantages in boat handling in NOT having a long keel.
It isn't that I can't drive a long keeled boat, it's just that there are (IMHO) better options available.
chrisedwards
Well-Known Member
We have crossed swords over this before and there is nothing wrong in having different perceptions. For maneuvering under sail in close quarters - such a joy and for me the most enjoyable part of sailing, a long keel is superior to all alternatives. Even a deep forefoot is better than cutaway. Lateral resistance is king. Alternatives need speed or they stall and become useless until way is brought on. For close quarters maneuvering the vessel is often not moving ahead through the water - try a very slow tack and feel the head move off - with a forefoot she will feel "0n rails" and this is a quote from a world famous circumnavigator and yacht designer. This is just one example - many others. Other reasons too but I feel the need to give another view to the one above.
GHA
Well-Known Member
You're not alone eitherI ain't gone yet sonny (he croaked from his deathbed )
Walk around any bluewater haul out yard you'll see plenty, owners happy with a propellor protected in an aperture from the fishing nets and ropes you'll inevitably run over mid ocean, happy with a rock solid simple transom hung rudder, happy with a keel which will safely take some uneven ground drying out in an uncharted backwaters port, happy with a gentle motion at anchor and on passage. Who cares steering backwards isn't great when you live on the hook.
Long term bluewater a long keel has some very real advantages.
dom
Well-Known Member
Another problem with long keelers is that their high wetted surface makes them difficult to anchor in strong tidal flows 
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
You're not alone either
Walk around any bluewater haul out yard you'll see plenty, owners happy with a propellor protected in an aperture from the fishing nets and ropes you'll inevitably run over mid ocean, happy with a rock solid simple transom hung rudder, happy with a keel which will safely take some uneven ground drying out in an uncharted backwaters port, happy with a gentle motion at anchor and on passage. Who cares steering backwards isn't great when you live on the hook.
Long term bluewater a long keel has some very real advantages.
Sorry but these statements are full of implied misinformation.
Walk round any blue water hall out yard.... I've walked round a few and I've seen all sorts of boats. Pointing out long keels there might mean two other things; firstly that some blue water sailors are very conservative and haven't realised some fin keel designs can give them all the characteristics they love whilst sailing faster and with better slow speed handing characteristics. Secondly, long keeled boats are often old and cheap. There are any number of blue water sailors who don't have big budgets and good luck to them. I suspect the anecdotal stats you suggest are skewed a little by this factor and if you offered some of them a modern Malo etc they'd bite your hand off. Furthermore my anecdotal news would be I see lots of fin keeled yachts blue water sailing.
Well designed fin keeled boats dry out and take the ground just as well as any others. I'm not talking about deep finned high aspect ratio racers, but well designed good length fins on cruising boats.
Plenty of boats with skegs for the rudder to hang off if you're worried about spade rudders being 'exposed'. Trying to make a virtue out of the way some long keeled rudders behave seems slightly odd to me. One classic double ended I knew was a complete pain in the backside steering forwards or backwards. (Prop shaft on the quarter didn't help!)
Run a wire from the keel to the skeg if you're paranoid about nets etc. Personally I've picked up nets and lines in a long keeled boat and a fin and I think a good rope cutter is more important.
My final gripe is the way you say things like, lying peacefully at anchor' implying it's only long keeled boats lie peacefully.. It taps into the emotion but implies it's ONLY possible with a long keel. It's rot; our current Sealord lies to anchor extremely well. It helps that she weighs 11 tonnes and has a medium fin and large rudder and some forefoot, but she's still a fin.
I accept 100% that some long keeled designs have a nice motion, I accept 100% that many sail reasonably well but so do many well designed fin keeled boats. All fin keeled boats are not lightweight skittish hard work. Some have decent forefoots and all the benefits that you claim are exclusive to long keels.
Last edited:
GHA
Well-Known Member
Nets is a big one, think of a dark blustery night when you see a basketball pitch sized mess of nets, ropes and floats disappearing astern a thousand miles from land (the oceans are depressingly full of rubbish) - what's got the better chances, fin and spade with exposed prop or long keel /transom rudder and prop in an aperture?
The post was a response to your statement that most long keel lovers had died, bluewater that's just not the case, there are many still around and content despite net forums telling them they are wrong
The post was a response to your statement that most long keel lovers had died, bluewater that's just not the case, there are many still around and content despite net forums telling them they are wrong
Sorry, but you made that bit up
Last edited:
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Nets is a big one, think of a dark blustery night when you see a basketball pitch sized mess of nets, ropes and floats disappearing astern a thousand miles from land (the oceans are depressingly full of rubbish) - what's got the better chances, fin and spade with exposed prop or long keel /transom rudder and prop in an aperture?
The post was a response to your statement that most long keel lovers had died, bluewater that's just not the case, there are many still around and content despite net forums telling them they are wrong
Sorry, but you made that bit up
There are still many around for all the reasons I cited. Nothing particularly wrong with long keeled boats and they do what they do quite well. What I object to is worshiping at the feet of long keels for all the self justification that some people espouse with closed minds. Long keels are not as virtuous as some would maintain. There's a huge amount of 'old fashioned blue water = long keeled logic." All the old writers used to wax lyrical about the subject but that doesn't make them right and it just perpetuates the myth.
Ask those blue water sailors in their long keeled boats if they'd swap for a new Malo or recent Halberg or a newly refitted Nicholson (choose which one carefully!) etc etc. I strongly suspect (from my personal observations) that for many of them budget had a large part in their choice of boat, and self justification rapidly follows.
I'm not telling them they're wrong. If they enjoy their sailing and are happy with the way their boat behaves then good luck to them. However what I can do is I can try and encourage people to be open minded on the subject and not just swallow every yacht club bit of bar gossip on blue water sailing.
Last edited:
GHA
Well-Known Member
If you glance at my post again, you won't see anything about long keels being the only way, just a few benefits.
And once again,nthere still are a lot of people who prefer that route for many reasons, your statement that most lovers of long keels have died is simply not accurate.
Each to their own
rotrax
Well-Known Member
This is degenerating again-keel preference is a choice. The choice may be dictated by many things.
In my case I like the build quality of my chosen boat. Our previous model was sixteen years old and visitors thought she was almost new. I like the substantial weight, the soft gentle motion without slamming and the ease with which it holds station when picking up a mooring.
I can live with the cons, and can-just about-afford it.
Its a boat. Boats are good things. So are the people who sail in them.
I dont care what others think of my choice, as I dont care what they choose.
In my previous life, primary safety was paramount. Having a mechanical failiure at top speed in the IOM meant serious, if not fatal consequenses. Choosing an inherantly strong bike and preparing it properly was the answer. For me anyway!
Perhaps this philosophy has transmitted into boats. If it has I am not sorry..........................
In my case I like the build quality of my chosen boat. Our previous model was sixteen years old and visitors thought she was almost new. I like the substantial weight, the soft gentle motion without slamming and the ease with which it holds station when picking up a mooring.
I can live with the cons, and can-just about-afford it.
Its a boat. Boats are good things. So are the people who sail in them.
I dont care what others think of my choice, as I dont care what they choose.
In my previous life, primary safety was paramount. Having a mechanical failiure at top speed in the IOM meant serious, if not fatal consequenses. Choosing an inherantly strong bike and preparing it properly was the answer. For me anyway!
Perhaps this philosophy has transmitted into boats. If it has I am not sorry..........................
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I think the argument that deep-fin designs cross oceans and are therefore seaworthy misses something. The most uncomfortable car I ever travelled in was a Ferrari Dion belonging to a friend. It was undoubtedly roadworthy, but the suspension was so hard that every cat's eye - literally - was a spine jarring thud. Beautiful car, but wholly unsuited for any journey of more than ten miles or so.
By the same token, a modern boat may well be as safe as an older design for crossing oceans, but much more unpleasant.
That is emphatically not to say that log keels are the only way to go; clearly they are not. However, "such and such a design has crossed oceans and is therefore seaworthy" bypasses an important part o the discussion.
For long journeys nothing beats my Citroën DS23 ... I wouldn't want to throw it around a racetrack, though.
By the same token, a modern boat may well be as safe as an older design for crossing oceans, but much more unpleasant.
That is emphatically not to say that log keels are the only way to go; clearly they are not. However, "such and such a design has crossed oceans and is therefore seaworthy" bypasses an important part o the discussion.
For long journeys nothing beats my Citroën DS23 ... I wouldn't want to throw it around a racetrack, though.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I think you hit the nail on the head.
Perhaps I should rephrase my argument. "Buy a boat with your eyes open" and don't be suckered into the "long keels are best for ocean crossings and liveaboards old argument". There are downsides to long keels and some fin keeled boats have nearly all of their good points. (And some other good ones that the long keeled boats can only dream about!)
The truth is that there are some lovely long keeled boats that sail beautifully, but there are also some real dogs about that are slow and will leave you cussing in frustration at their contrary nature as you try to sail and manoeuvre them. Poky accomodation for their length and limited storage and headroom. Perhaps some will bragg of their fast ocean passages, but nobody races a long keeled boat and expects to win (except on handicap!)
Equally, there are some (very popular) fin keeled yachts that I would think twice about crossing the English channel in, let alone an ocean. There are some fast ones and some that behave very badly. They slam and don't track and require lots of crew who are constantly watching the thing as they sail the boat. However in citing those as examples, the long keel aficionados throw the baby out with the bathwater. They choose to ignore all the moderate fin keeled boats that track well, don't slam, yet sail faster and often have more accomodation and storage than their beloved long keeled pride and joy....
Its the fixation with long keels that made me start this thread several years ago and the self justifying adoration of the characteristics of their boats that I question. Those wonderful characteristics can be found equally well in a moderate and well designed fin keel boat. I don't understand why some people can't see both sides of the point of view.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
If you glance at my post again, you won't see anything about long keels being the only way, just a few benefits.
And once again,nthere still are a lot of people who prefer that route for many reasons, your statement that most lovers of long keels have died is simply not accurate.
Each to their own
My statement to lovers of long keeled boat having died off refers to the many authors who have waxed lyrical on the subject and I think you'll find that many of them are no longer with us. The remark was a bit tongue in cheek anyway...
JumbleDuck
Well-Known Member
I think it may be because "long keel" is often associated, rightly or wrongly, with "traditional appearance". My boat has a long keel. It's a NACA section aerofoil and the hull is otherwise pretty near circular, so not nearly as bad as traditional hydrodynamics, but still nowhere near a patch on a fin keel. If a fin keel version had been available I'd have been just as tempted.
The Mystery range does this - very traditional looking above the water line, very modern below. They don't sell many, though.
stranded
Well-Known Member
I have sailed our fin keeler uphill from Studland to Dartmouth without autohelm and without needing to tend the wheel except course changes. Doesn't work reliably on other points of sail though.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
As you mention it, I was sailing a Nicholson 55 (fin keel with 2.8 metre draft) on a close reach and had some beginners learning to helm. They couldn't get the hand of not chasing the compass round the card and producing a very snaky wake. At one point I took over the steering and without one crew noticing lashed the wheel. She sailed on for hours without me touching a thing.
Of course its only long keeled boats that track well... huh?
temptress
Well-Known Member
As you said... You cannot sail a Fin keel boat as well as YOU sail a long keeled boat but that's you. Others find it easier to sail a Fin keeler in tight situations. It is what you are used to.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Umm.. After a very long time (42 years) with long keeled gaff cutters, I have just bought a "moderate fin and skeg" design from the 1960's - an Ohlson 38. The shape "looked right" to my eyes, whereas the shape of some modern "long keel" boats like the Vancouvers, the Island Packets and the Frances 26 all looked like fin keel boats with added wetted surface.
