Poignard
Well-Known Member
Instead of "This is what I think and I want people who think likewise to join me in condemning those who think otherwise."
What's the fascination with long keels?
- Thread starter john_morris_uk
- Start date
Instead of "This is what I think and I want people who think likewise to join me in condemning those who think otherwise."
Salty John
Well-Known Member
Back to the original post...
The original post proposed that fin keel boats could be more suitable for blue water cruising than 'traditional' long keel boats.
I've been offshore in heavy weather in both types and couldn't pick one over the other for this aspect of cruising. The fin and spade was a moderate displacement Swan 42 designed by Ron Holland and it behaved impeccably, hove to comfortably and made headway in appalling conditions. I've been on other fin and spade boats, of lighter displacement, less competent design and lower build quality that would have been very uncomfortable and, perhaps, dangerous. The long keel boats also performed well in heavy going.
For blue water cruising I would suggest that maneuverability in marinas is not a top priority so this point is moot for me. The ability to carry stores and water, provide good accommodation, have a comfortable motion on passage and at anchor are important points and these derive from displacement and hull shape as well as underwater profile.
The ability to sail efficiently and make good passage times is important in blue water cruising. This doesn't exclude long keel boats - my Phil Rhodes designed Adriana sailed well in light airs, for instance - but it does imply knowledgeable design.
I can't agree that a spade rudder is no more vulnerable than a protected rudder when it comes to its ability to snag pot lines. I sailed on crab pot infested Chesapeake Bay for 4 years with a fin and spade design and it was a constant concern. With Adriana's long keel I could plough through a minefield of pots with impunity. That doesn't make the spade rudder bad for bluewater cruising - just sailing where there are lots of crab pots.
If the spade rudder is properly designed and built it should, like a properly designed bolt-on keel, be fit for purpose. It's how the builder achieves the designers spec that's important.
Anyway, I'm sure this fascinating thread will run and run. I think there are many more aspects of the design of a blue water cruising boat that could be enjoyably debated - draught, taking the ground, rigs. And then there's multi hulls.
The original post proposed that fin keel boats could be more suitable for blue water cruising than 'traditional' long keel boats.
I've been offshore in heavy weather in both types and couldn't pick one over the other for this aspect of cruising. The fin and spade was a moderate displacement Swan 42 designed by Ron Holland and it behaved impeccably, hove to comfortably and made headway in appalling conditions. I've been on other fin and spade boats, of lighter displacement, less competent design and lower build quality that would have been very uncomfortable and, perhaps, dangerous. The long keel boats also performed well in heavy going.
For blue water cruising I would suggest that maneuverability in marinas is not a top priority so this point is moot for me. The ability to carry stores and water, provide good accommodation, have a comfortable motion on passage and at anchor are important points and these derive from displacement and hull shape as well as underwater profile.
The ability to sail efficiently and make good passage times is important in blue water cruising. This doesn't exclude long keel boats - my Phil Rhodes designed Adriana sailed well in light airs, for instance - but it does imply knowledgeable design.
I can't agree that a spade rudder is no more vulnerable than a protected rudder when it comes to its ability to snag pot lines. I sailed on crab pot infested Chesapeake Bay for 4 years with a fin and spade design and it was a constant concern. With Adriana's long keel I could plough through a minefield of pots with impunity. That doesn't make the spade rudder bad for bluewater cruising - just sailing where there are lots of crab pots.
If the spade rudder is properly designed and built it should, like a properly designed bolt-on keel, be fit for purpose. It's how the builder achieves the designers spec that's important.
Anyway, I'm sure this fascinating thread will run and run. I think there are many more aspects of the design of a blue water cruising boat that could be enjoyably debated - draught, taking the ground, rigs. And then there's multi hulls.
BobnLesley
Well-Known Member
Like most things in life, you pays your money and makes your choice; on my own part this comment pretty much sums things up:
"...i've been a lot more frightened by rough weather offshore than by challenging berthing situations..."
and on that basis, my preference is for long keelers. A good friend's choice meanwhile is for race-based windsurfers with a lid on top; his choice isn't wrong, just different. We both agree that he'll generally get there faster (and possibly/hopefully arrive before the weather does), but if the seas cut up nasty, then he has to work harder.
"...i've been a lot more frightened by rough weather offshore than by challenging berthing situations..."
and on that basis, my preference is for long keelers. A good friend's choice meanwhile is for race-based windsurfers with a lid on top; his choice isn't wrong, just different. We both agree that he'll generally get there faster (and possibly/hopefully arrive before the weather does), but if the seas cut up nasty, then he has to work harder.
snowleopard
Well-Known Member
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Blueboatman
Well-Known Member
I/Ps seem to all have the same width, so, as the length increases per model they might start to sail better. The smaller ones are not helped when coupled with shallow draft and a lifting keel as well!
Amazingly,in the USA, Pacific Seacraft are still building heavy displacement long keel double enders. I guess they know their market cos they too are still at it.
Amazingly,in the USA, Pacific Seacraft are still building heavy displacement long keel double enders. I guess they know their market cos they too are still at it.
Salty John
Well-Known Member
The Pacific Seacraft boats come close to being my ideal cruising boats. I'd just like to see a transom rather than that pointy stern.
http://www.pacificseacraft.com/html/ps44.html
Click on the 'interior profiles' tab to see the underwater shape.
http://www.pacificseacraft.com/html/ps44.html
Click on the 'interior profiles' tab to see the underwater shape.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I wonder whether, if you filter out the knee jerk 'defend my choice of boat' answers it boils down to some very basic criteria that most of us might agree on: a hull shape and boat that will look after you and with decent sea keeping qualities. Where I fall out with people is when they suggest that such qualities are best (or can only) be achieved by a long keeled boat. My original premise is that this may be an anachronism or hold over from the past. Just because you can point out some crappy lightweight fin keeled boats that shouldn't be taken out of sight of land doesn't tar all fin keeled boats with the same brush.. Also, just because you are the proud owner of a delightful long keeled boat doesn't mean that another design might not be worthy of consideration. Are you really going to suggest that my sailing in a Nicholson fin keeler was foolish or dangerous, or that if you were offered a Malo or Swann of any decent size you are going to turn it down?
Long keeled can be ok, but I don't understand the fixation with them by some, and I really don't understand the slow is ok by others. I'm all for comfortable passages, but nearly everyone I've sailed with has liked to make good progress and if you can have all the good qualities if a long keeled boat but with a sensible fin design (and go faster) then its a no brainer for me.
The main problem is that most of sail what we can afford and not always what we want or dream of...
Long keeled can be ok, but I don't understand the fixation with them by some, and I really don't understand the slow is ok by others. I'm all for comfortable passages, but nearly everyone I've sailed with has liked to make good progress and if you can have all the good qualities if a long keeled boat but with a sensible fin design (and go faster) then its a no brainer for me.
The main problem is that most of sail what we can afford and not always what we want or dream of...
Robin
Well-Known Member
There is also a difference IMO between slow, as in not being as fast as another similar length boat, and slow as in not being able to sail in light winds under say 8kts at all. I don't see it as very important if you lose half a knot or so in average winds, but to come to a stop in light winds when another boat keeps moving on is entirely different. So what then, sit around for days waiting for wind, whistle or motor until you do find some?
The pot line and spade rudder thing is irrelevant well out at sea but in any case we picked up just one 20 years back (on a W33) and have not done so in well over 30,000mls since, despite sailing most of the time in areas where the things are seemingly laid as traps for boats rather than traps for shellfish.
The pot line and spade rudder thing is irrelevant well out at sea but in any case we picked up just one 20 years back (on a W33) and have not done so in well over 30,000mls since, despite sailing most of the time in areas where the things are seemingly laid as traps for boats rather than traps for shellfish.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
The late Lord Riverdale would undoubtedly have responded to this thread with the words "twin keels".
One of the things that not-a-lot-of-people-know is that his sucessive Bluebirds of Thorne were long distance twin keelers, and by all accounts very sucessful as such.
There is, I think, an awful lot to be said for the centreboarder as a long distance cruiser...
One of the things that not-a-lot-of-people-know is that his sucessive Bluebirds of Thorne were long distance twin keelers, and by all accounts very sucessful as such.
There is, I think, an awful lot to be said for the centreboarder as a long distance cruiser...
flaming
Well-Known Member
Fascinating thread this.
Throwing another question out there...
Does anyone have any experience of ocean crossing with twin rudders? A lot of the pros of long keels seems to be their tracking ability, an effect which is often replicated, especially off the wind, by modern boats of the Elan 350 / 450 type with a big bottom and twin rudders.
Now I'm not suggesting those boats exactly - but the thought occurs that there might be more than one way of skinning the goose. And such hull shapes would undoubtably be faster, just as good at tracking and come with much bigger cockpits. Plus the wide, flat hull shape aft will roll less at anchor (and on passage too) and generally offer much more accomodation.
Disadvantages would be the upwind motion, although they would of course be sailed with much less heel, and (I'm guessing here) arguably worse heavy weather survival. And since there aren't a lot of second hand examples - purchase price.
Throwing another question out there...
Does anyone have any experience of ocean crossing with twin rudders? A lot of the pros of long keels seems to be their tracking ability, an effect which is often replicated, especially off the wind, by modern boats of the Elan 350 / 450 type with a big bottom and twin rudders.
Now I'm not suggesting those boats exactly - but the thought occurs that there might be more than one way of skinning the goose. And such hull shapes would undoubtably be faster, just as good at tracking and come with much bigger cockpits. Plus the wide, flat hull shape aft will roll less at anchor (and on passage too) and generally offer much more accomodation.
Disadvantages would be the upwind motion, although they would of course be sailed with much less heel, and (I'm guessing here) arguably worse heavy weather survival. And since there aren't a lot of second hand examples - purchase price.
alant
Well-Known Member
"Originally Posted by alant
As I posted earlier, long keel yachts are made in relativly large volume by Island Packet. Their Bob Johnson designs are trademarked as "Full Foil Keels" Look at their website and check the hull shape- looks like a long keel to me!"
You sure you've got the correct poster, cos this below is the only one I've made on this thread! I've never mentioned Island Packet!
("If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.
I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.
You've answered your question "why doesn't anybody make them any more."
"but a nightmare in marinas" )
KellysEye
Well-Known Member
>Well I don't want a stand up row, but you must have sailed some rubbish fin keeled boats. I know that there are lots about, but there are also some ges that won't broach and misbehave in the way you describe.
Boats sailed include Jeanneuas, Benteaus, Dufours and Gibseas. Endeavour (US make) which was heavily made and behaved well. Which AWB's have you sailed that don't misbehave?
>I have enjoyed a few ocean passages and I have never been on one where the crew didn't watch the progress made with great interest. In light airs all efforts being made to get the boat moving and lots of happy discussions about what the first beer or run punch will taste like. So the point I am trying to make is that if you enjoy sailing just for being at sea then fine, but most people seem to like to make progress and if I get there two or three days quicker then that makes a lot of sense to me.
We do enjoy sailing and we do keep the boat moving and we do like making progress for obvious reasons. Two or three days to is is not really importnt to us though. To a big crew I can imagine it is.
>Some of my Ocean sailing has been in JSASTC Nicholson 55's. (fin keel, skeg and rudder partly supported). Difficult to find a more sea kindly safe yet reasonably quick ocean sailor. Unless you are going to tell me otherwise?
I'm not going to telll you otherwise, that's a well designed and built boat perfect for ocean sailing with a big crew. Bear in mind that the bigger the boat the better the motion, most cruising boats are smaller than that pobably averaging about 40 feet from what we've seen.
Boats sailed include Jeanneuas, Benteaus, Dufours and Gibseas. Endeavour (US make) which was heavily made and behaved well. Which AWB's have you sailed that don't misbehave?
>I have enjoyed a few ocean passages and I have never been on one where the crew didn't watch the progress made with great interest. In light airs all efforts being made to get the boat moving and lots of happy discussions about what the first beer or run punch will taste like. So the point I am trying to make is that if you enjoy sailing just for being at sea then fine, but most people seem to like to make progress and if I get there two or three days quicker then that makes a lot of sense to me.
We do enjoy sailing and we do keep the boat moving and we do like making progress for obvious reasons. Two or three days to is is not really importnt to us though. To a big crew I can imagine it is.
>Some of my Ocean sailing has been in JSASTC Nicholson 55's. (fin keel, skeg and rudder partly supported). Difficult to find a more sea kindly safe yet reasonably quick ocean sailor. Unless you are going to tell me otherwise?
I'm not going to telll you otherwise, that's a well designed and built boat perfect for ocean sailing with a big crew. Bear in mind that the bigger the boat the better the motion, most cruising boats are smaller than that pobably averaging about 40 feet from what we've seen.
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
I have sailed lots that don't misbehave. For fin keeled boats that behave: try lots of the Westerly range - some of the Moody's. Swan's, Malo's some of the Najad's. Halberg Rassey's, Sweden Boats etc etc.
I have sailed all of the above (except Malo's) at some time or another and they almost without exception do not exhibit the bad traits that you described in your previous post. Be a bit choosy about which model from the range you sail - and you can find a delightfully mannered boat that has excellent accomodation and sails quicker and points higher etc etc than some of the 'long keeled classics' that some people seem wedded to.
Many of the boats you listed are lightweight boats with fat backsides that will probably take you round the world - but not in the safe and secure way we are discussing here. I also find their sailing characteristics a pain in the backside. I don't enjoy having to play the main in the gusts, when cruising on any point of sail; its not what long distance cruising is all about.
Please don't think I am saying all long keeled boats are bad - I am just arguing for a sense of proportion over the long keeled issue - and to show that a long keel is not essential for deep water cruising.
Of course all Jeaneau/Gibsea etc owners are going to suggest that I have implied that their boats are rubbish. I am NOT saying that - but its horses for courses.
Robin
Well-Known Member
Oi you, our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 was a dream to sail in all weathers, two up, so is our friends Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 which was designed for the Transat two handed race before selling in cruiser/racer form over 1,000. 
Generalisations, harumph!
Generalisations, harumph!
john_morris_uk
Well-Known Member
Whoops! My apologies, and I agree - I forgot to point out that generalisations are rubbish. The the poster had said that he'd tried lots of fin keeled boats and they all misbehaved - hence my comment that he had not tried the right ones!Oi you, our Jeanneau Sun Legende 41 was a dream to sail in all weathers, two up, so is our friends Jeanneau Sun Fizz 40 which was designed for the Transat two handed race before selling in cruiser/racer form over 1,000.
Generalisations, harumph!
wklein
Well-Known Member
Long fin keel, deep bilges, Spade rudder with 3" SS Shaft, Narrow and deep with low windage and encapsulated keel. All bunks are on water level.
Fin keels can be very sensible. Most high production ones are built to be cheap and good in light conditions, when most people do most of their sailing.
Twister_Ken
Well-Known Member
Just to keep the pot boiling, wklein's plan above looks delightful, but might roll sickeningly downwind. Not good on a trade wind passage.
Vara
Well-Known Member
The perfect profile,
But I am biased
But I am biased
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RobbieW
Well-Known Member
Arent all the 'open' series of yachts - Minis, 40s, 60s, 70s - basically that design? Those are the (monohull) vehicle of choice for the pro ocean racers these days.
I've not crossed an ocean in one but one of the most exhilariting deliveries I've done was skippering an Open 40 from the Hamble to Wicklow. Avg 10 kts once we got round Lands End and had the wind on the beam - then again, I heard that particular boat started to delaminate some time afterwards - so ocean crossing, NO.
