What's the fascination with long keels?

Well, I sail a 25 ton long-keeler made of steel.

There is one important fact which everyone has missed in this discussion, You will never hear of a long-keel falling off. :D

That is possibly why they are sought after for blue-water cruising. If your keel falls off, you always lose the boat unless you are in the nursery area in the Solent where the RNLI will come and tow you home to mummy. :rolleyes:
 
Conachair said:
Possibly, happened to 2 of our little gaggle coming up from Brazil to Caribbean so very small sample size. But sounded deeply scarey, getting bashed on the head by a boat in big swells in the middle of the night trying to cut away a fishing net from the rudder. Gettting caught round a net/rope or engine failure were the two most common calamity stories.

How did that happen? I've always felt a bit safer with long keel, prop tucked away in an aperture between the rudder and keel. But there's always more to learn.
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Well, exactly what you described happened off Old Harry, less than a mile from land when a Sadler 29 (skeg mounted rudder) hooked up a pot line. Tethered the boat to the seabed in a strong tidal stream. Skipper went over the side with his breadknife, attached with his harness. Boat slammed down on his head and killed him. Wife had to call the rescue services to recover him. Listened to it all on the VHF from my laid up boat next to the field where the chopper landed with the body to take to the hospital.

You may FEEL safer, but I can say from listening to countless stories (in my previous line of work) of fouled stern gear and rudders, there is no configuration that is immune. Arguably the probability of catching something with a long keel is less, it is still greater than zero and the consequences can be worse. Good advice to avoid going in the water unless the boat is quietly anchored.

My experience of picking up a net was in the middle of the channel and a discarded bit of net drifting by got hooked up in the prop (motoring at the time) and balled up in the aperture, jamming the rudder and stalling my little old ST engine. Sailed back to IOW and went into shallow water in Sandown Bay to go over the side and clear it. Wrote it up in PBO and fee for that went a long way towards buying my rope cutter!
 
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lenseman said:
Well, I sail a 25 ton long-keeler made of steel.

There is one important fact which everyone has missed in this discussion, You will never hear of a long-keel falling off. :D

That is possibly why they are sought after for blue-water cruising. If your keel falls off, you always lose the boat unless you are in the nursery area in the Solent where the RNLI will come and tow you home to mummy. :rolleyes:
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Not true- a west country charter boat lost its keel a while ago and it was only discovered when another charterer took it back as it would not steer very well-lots of leeway- and was very tender. I also indicated in my first post on this thread that long keelers were unlikely to suffer certain potentialy catastrophic failures. I imagined keel loss to be one of them.
 
Conachair said:
Got a wee touch obsessed with this and google..

First off, my opinion was based on very little evidence, couple of boats I knew and bar stories. And as I said in a previous post it's very difficult to draw any definite conclusions from such a small amount of data with so many variables.

But..

Of all the arc rudder failures (I found anyway), none were long keeled boats. Which may well be explained by a tendancy for people favouring older heavier built boats to be naturally more self reliant and not go in for something like the arc. Or just skint ;) Or something.

A few links came up, couple of interesting ones..

http://books-for-sail.com/boat-design-and-theory/18-rudder-failure-why-it-happens.html

http://www.bethandevans.com/pdf/emergencyrudder.pdf

Spade rudders for bluewater sailing still scare me. :(
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Couple of observations. First, as your links show, rudder failures are not confined to spade rudders - although there are examples of serious failures of this type. When you look at them, however there is usually a very good explanation on the specific causes. Many ( the 30+ on Hunter boats for example) are failures of a now discontinued method of manufacture. On the other hand there are literally thousands of spade rudders made by specialists such as Jeffa using the latest design criteria and fitted to popular boats where there are virtually no recorded failures. For example the Hanse rudder that failed in the Irish Sea was so unusual that an extensive investigation failed to determine the cause.

This is not to say that the designs are totally trouble free, just that the chances of failure are grossly overplayed and not supported by any clear evidence. This, like many things to do with yacht design and safety issues is partly because of lack of any systematic system of identifying and recording failures and so there is over-reliance on hearsay. This can just as easily understate some issues as overstate others!

There is a truism in social science research that says "a way of seeing is a way of not seeing". So if you are looking for failures in spade rudders, that is what you will find - but on the way you will ignore all those that do not fail! Equally if you want to show that long keels are safer as they do not pick up nets, that is what you will find - except that you will have to explain the "abberations" of which there have ben at least two in this thread alone!
 
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john_morris_uk said:
I am not sure if your are joking when you write this... I have done rather more close quarter sailing in a long keeled boat than I care to repeat. (I once spent the whole of Cowes week sailing onto a pontoon berth in our SCOD. Not only did most of the fin keeled boats have NO IDEA how slowly we tacked, but they also had to be shouted at VERY LOUDLY sometimes to not stop suddenly in front of us as we made our way up the Medina as four and half tonnes on 26 foot with no engine doesn't have any brakes.) Give me a fin keeled boat that tacks and gybes on a sixpence any day in a situation like that...

I agree that some people seem to be justifying their own boat, rather than trying to be objective in the discussion. I also suspect that Snowleopard is correct when he says that its not necessarily the long keel, but the displacement that gives some long keeled boats their pleasant motion. I have sailed heavy displacement long keeled and fin keeled boats and don't notice any particular difference in the motion. I have also sailed some lightweight fin keeled craft that flew in the right conditions, but left you mentally exhausted from the constant effort to keep them on their feet and physically exhausted from the erratic motion and unkind seakeeping. Just don't use this latter sort of boat to justify having a long keel. Its not representative of the sort of fin keeled cruising boat I am extolling the virtues of.
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No - I,m not joking - tacking up the wide, albeit crowded, Medina in the small manoeuverable SCOD - yes "tack and gybe on a sixpence" would be nice but not essential. In my post you will see I,m talking about close quarters manoeuvering under sail - then I,m with Twister Ken - post 60-all the way.
 
chrisedwards said:
No - I,m not joking - tacking up the wide, albeit crowded, Medina in the small maneuverable SCOD - yes "tack and gybe on a sixpence" would be nice but not essential. In my post you will see I,m talking about close quarters manoeuvering under sail - then I,m with Twister Ken - post 60-all the way.
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To called the SCOD small and maneuverable is perhaps over-egging it slightly - well compared to the maneuverability of a fin keeled Sadler 26 or similar. The SCOD was a joy and delight to sail in many ways, but turn on a sixpence it did not. Like all the long keeled boats I have sailed, when you want to tack, you lean on the tiller and wait. On longer bigger boats, you can almost go and make a cup of tea while you tack - if you didn't have to back the staysail and attend to the runners in the middle of the process....

The Medina doesn't feel wide when its the end of racing in Cowes week. Have you ever sailed there in such conditions? Most people keep well away, because the river is wall to wall yachts and sailing a long keeled boat up under those circumstances doesn't do ones blood pressure any good. A small fin keeled boat is much easier. Just by way of contrast, in a small fin keeled boat and in lightish airs you can stop and sail backwards with a bit of skill and application. That's not something that's easily achieved in any of the long keeled boats I have sailed - no matter how well mannered they were going the right way. I am not sure what close quarters sailing is if it isn't sailing up the Medina and alongside the pontoon in Cowes Week at the end of the days racing. Its about the most demanding close quarters sailing I can think of.
 
Dream on

A good discussion this time with much less, "I have got this so I must be right and my boat is the best."
Sailing a fin and spade rudder myself, it is fun to sail, goes well light on the helm but yes it will slam into a head sea unless you keep enough sail to heel the boat when she will ride easily.
Yes she is too deep for the east coast, so they say, but actually the number of times I want to sail in less than two metres of water are pretty few.
As far as shape and appearance the vertical stem will never give the sweet line of the Mystery 35 that I have drooled over at the last couple of boat shows... sigh.
http://www.cornishcrabbers.co.uk/index.cfm/boat/Mystery.Mystery35
 
Tranona said:
You may FEEL safer, but I can say from listening to countless stories (in my previous line of work) of fouled stern gear and rudders, there is no configuration that is immune. Arguably the probability of catching something with a long keel is less, it is still greater than zero and the consequences can be worse. Good advice to avoid going in the water unless the boat is quietly anchored.
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I do feel safer. Not being able to find any references to tradtitional long keel failures offshore doesn't alter that. Though it must happen, there were none in the previous links. And no one here has come up with a tradiitional long keel getting caught on anything either.

A turning prop will stand the chance of getting caught of course, I've had the prop get snarled up with fishing line before. (And a dinghy painter, my own - ooops :o ) But fail to see how you could argue that a prop in an aperture is not better protected than a prop out on it's own.

"avoid going in the water...".... Don't think you quite get the isolation bluewater boats can be in a lot of the time. Brazil is a good example. Coastline about 7,500 Km long, like london to alaska. And sizable chunks of that with nowhere to run to, chances of a lift out close to zero when there is anywhere. Not difficult to see why a lot of bluewater sailors favour the simplicity and ruggedness of a traditional long keel with a rudder hanging off the back.

The Solent it ain't.
 
parsifal said:
Rather like a religion. ;)

Seriously, I like the general steadiness and predictability of my long-keeled Twister, and the comforting feeling that she will look after us in the sort of conditions I do my best to avoid. It is a joy in bad weather to heave-to and go below for a break or to go forward and reef on a stable platform. SWMBO feels safe in our boat as well, and as she's the cook it's important to keep her on-side.

I have sailed in very few short-keeled boats but I found them to be very exciting to sail, and racing them must be great fun, but you had to watch what you were doing all the time; let go the helm for a moment and they're off on a frolic of their own.

You mention 'blue water' cruising but I don't see why that should be any more testing than sailing in Northern European waters with its fierce tides, sudden weather changes and navigational hazards. In the days of commercial sailing ships, masters were always under the greatest stress when in soundings and often unable to relax until well out into open water.

It's true our accomodation may appear cramped when compared with a modern boat of the same length but we are quite happy to live simply on board and not to cart around loads of extra stuff just because there is room for it.

Finally, we like the look of our Twister and so do other people, to judge by the number of compliments she gets. :D
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+1 I agree with you in every way..........this is actually the issue I have with choosing a 26/28 footer right now.......it aint all about speed and pointing........for me its about comfort, security, simplicity and love (hehe OK a bit over the top that last one but I do mean of course that I need to love my boat not just like it)

:)
 
Babylon said:
I don't have enough experience offshore (and none in any ocean) to offer an opinion objective enough to meet John's criteria - I'm also lying on my back on a sofa! - but here are my observations.

If ocean sailing is mainly off the wind, then surely pointing ability isn't a key factor, whereas ease of tracking is. Modern electronic autohelms might be pretty reliable, but they consume power (which windvane self-steering doesn't) and if they fail, or your supply does, then you've got a lot of human steering to do before you reach land, even more so if you're short-handed. In which case, I'd prefer a boat which tracks reliably, whether fin or long.

Long keelers tend to be narrower in the beam, so one's got less distance in which to fly through the cabin if things suddenly get hysterical.

As has been pointed out, ease of heaving-to and comfortable motion have to rank quite high, whether fin or long.

I can't see how any limitations of handling in astern would seriously effect an ocean-crossing yacht. Its not like you're stopping every night in a tidal sardine-packing factory.

I've got a small long-keeler - its what I've got, it handles okay in astern, is comfortable in a seaway, tracks easily, gives me more than enough space to be on my own or two up. It also fulfills my idea of the sort of boats I like, which is as much about personal romance as objective argument. If I ever change boats and moved away from long keels, then it'll probably be for a heavy long-fin.
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+1 again..................every thing I want in a boat :)
 
Conachair said:
I do feel safer. Not being able to find any references to tradtitional long keel failures offshore doesn't alter that. Though it must happen, there were none in the previous links. And no one here has come up with a tradiitional long keel getting caught on anything either.

A turning prop will stand the chance of getting caught of course, I've had the prop get snarled up with fishing line before. (And a dinghy painter, my own - ooops :o ) But fail to see how you could argue that a prop in an aperture is not better protected than a prop out on it's own.

"avoid going in the water...".... Don't think you quite get the isolation bluewater boats can be in a lot of the time. Brazil is a good example. Coastline about 7,500 Km long, like london to alaska. And sizable chunks of that with nowhere to run to, chances of a lift out close to zero when there is anywhere. Not difficult to see why a lot of bluewater sailors favour the simplicity and ruggedness of a traditional long keel with a rudder hanging off the back.

The Solent it ain't.
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There are two examples of long keel boats getting the prop fouled on this thread alone. Not arguing that the probability of fouling is less than with a more exposed prop, just that it is not uncommon and the consequences can be worse.

The point about not going into the water is not an absolute, just that it can be dangerous and not to be considered lightly.

It may well be that there are few failures of long keel attached rudders, but such boats are in a minority now. Our views on such matters are influenced by what we see, rather than what we don't see. So the failure of a rudder that gets high media exposure such as the Hunter one a few years ago dominates our view, but if you get behind the headlines you find specific reasons for the failure that do not carry over to that style of boat in general.

This is not going to change unless there is a rigorous sytem of reporting of failures - but that is not going to happen so we are left with having to make our own judgement based on what we see and hear.
 
I doubt if many people a fascinated by long keels but they do offer a few solid advantages.

Headroom is is good without resort to undue tophamper and bilge water has a place to go (oh, yes you will) that is not a saloon locker. They are easy to dry out alongside and often stow heavy things, like fuel and water, where they are best placed for stability. Best of all they don't fall off, even better an encapsulated plastic keel has no keel bolts to fret over at all. All things being equal, they also steer straight with a minimum of intervention from the pilot

So if you like all that stuff, then this is the sort of stuff you like. If you like another thing, then that is the thing for you. Amen.
 
Conachair said:
This link is probably well worth reposting.

For any thinking of heading off there is a huge amount of very useful well researched info in Beth & Evans site.

http://www.bethandevans.com/faqs.htm
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I was very interested to read about their boats. One a sloop with a deep fin with a bulb tip and the other a centre board ketch! And this is from people who go high latitude sailing and thought through their design and then had it built...
 
doug748 said:
I doubt if many people a fascinated by long keels but they do offer a few solid advantages.

Headroom is is good without resort to undue tophamper and bilge water has a place to go (oh, yes you will) that is not a saloon locker. They are easy to dry out alongside and often stow heavy things, like fuel and water, where they are best placed for stability. Best of all they don't fall off, even better an encapsulated plastic keel has no keel bolts to fret over at all. All things being equal, they also steer straight with a minimum of intervention from the pilot

So if you like all that stuff, then this is the sort of stuff you like. If you like another thing, then that is the thing for you. Amen.
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Doug, all these things might be true, but what I was suggesting was that you can have nearly all of them with some fin keeled boats that actually sail faster and better. The only thing you might compromise on slightly is the ability to keep tracking in a straight line, but that attribute is a two edged sword for lots of sailing... I am not criticising all long keeled boats, but trying to honestly balance the pro's and the con's.
Most sensible well built fin keeled boats don't lose their keels either...
 
john_morris_uk said:
Doug, all these things might be true, but what I was suggesting was that you can have nearly all of them with some fin keeled boats that actually sail faster and better. The only thing you might compromise on slightly is the ability to keep tracking in a straight line, but that attribute is a two edged sword for lots of sailing... I am not criticising all long keeled boats, but trying to honestly balance the pro's and the con's.
Most sensible well built fin keeled boats don't lose their keels either...
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The elderly autopilot we had on our Sun Legende had a little trick sometimes of switching to standby unasked. Sometimes we would sail 24hrs without it happening, sometimes it would do it twice in an hour and despite reconnecting every cable and much head scratching in the ten years we owned her, we never did found out why. The strangest thing was that, contrary to all the teeth sucking from pundits of a long keeled persuasion, when it did happen the boat would happily sail herself for quite some time before we would notice it had even happened, weird that.
 
Conachair said:
A turning prop will stand the chance of getting caught of course, I've had the prop get snarled up with fishing line before. (And a dinghy painter, my own - ooops :o ) But fail to see how you could argue that a prop in an aperture is not better protected than a prop out on it's own.

.
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I often thought that two small horizontal fins would provide additional protection for the prop.
 
john_morris_uk said:
I was very interested to read about their boats. One a sloop with a deep fin with a bulb tip and the other a centre board ketch! And this is from people who go high latitude sailing and thought through their design and then had it built...
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They also have a preference for Spade rudders - quote .....

"Many ‘sailing experts’ say that spade rudders are inherently weak and unsuitable for offshore use. This is flat out ridiculous."
 
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