What's the fascination with long keels?

[john_morris_uk]

I am trying to work out why so many people put 'long keel' as a really desirable aspect of a blue water boat? I am going to suggest that it doesn't make much sense any more when you compare it with lots of more modern fin keeled designs - and it might be argued that fin keels actually make a lot more sense.

I am not claiming some great insight, but I have owned long keeled boats, and I have sailed across oceans in fin and long keeled boats so I suppose I have some experience and first hand knowledge. The key aspect as far as I can see is the overall shape of the hull - NOT whether the thing has a long keel or not.

Long keeled boats are often slower and I suggest in the whole sailing experience their ability to track and sail themselves is as much a hindrance as a help. I have this deep feeling that in the days before reliable autopilots and self steering, a long keel and the ability to stay on course was what sold the thing to the long distance sailor, but self steering (mechanical or electric) is very much more reliable nowadays and perhaps the the small occasional gain in directional stability is completely outweighed by the disadvantages of less then sparkling performance and the difficulties of maeuvering under power. Some people will say that the auto-pilot will be working harder, but I am not advocating a radical fin keeled racing machine - rather a more staid fin keeled boat that behaves itself in a seaway, in the same way that a long keeled boat sometimes can.

Futhermore, people setting off on blue water sailing seem to forget that the vast majority of their time will be at anchor and they will only spend a relatively short period of time in the overall scheme of things actually sailing across the oceans. Of course being safe and sensible when sailing the ocean is a good thing, but if the design of the boat takes much of the pleasure out of sailing around the area when you get somewhere, then what's the point? I have known people who through planning and care have sailed round the world and have never been in much above a force 6. The long keeled boat might heave to very comfortably, but I will suggest that a decent fin keeled boat can be just as comfortable if its well sorted and balanced. It also shortens passage time, and as the tedious part of the long distance passage is the days and days at sea, so anything that reduces that by a day or two gets my vote.

I have this suspicion that some of the people who advocate long keels are more armchair sailors than actual sailors. The wisdom is regurgitated because its what Slocum said when he sailed Spray etc etc. But times have moved on and so long as your fin keeled boat is not too radical and flighty downwind, then why not enjoy the extra volume inside, the predictable handling under power and sail, and the increased performance that come from a modern fin keeled boat?

Sadly some people's opinion of fin keeled boats is based on the fat bottomed horrors that are produced for occasional light wind sailing, and whose performnce under sail is an (predictably) unpredictable nightmare of broaches and rounding up in the smallest of gusts.

So there's my two pennyworth - and you can shoot me down at will. I'll take comments more seriously from those who have owned/sailed boats with both sorts of keel though!

 

[RupertW]

I think you are right that we mix up the slamming and rudder trips of a modern shaped boat with the effect of a fin keel. I wonder how many traditional shaped hulls there are with a fin keel? I'd have to go back to Contessas as an example of sea kindliness with a fin.

 

[Salty John]

I don't see anything to argue with there.

Long keels will take the ground better than some fin keel designs, and an unprotected and unsupported spade rudder can be a worry, but all boats are a compromise.

 

[Twister_Ken]

I'll add one thing (well maybe two or three). Long keel designs generally mean deep bilges - a little bit of bilge water doesn't wash around, upsetting the inhabitants. It also provides a useful cellar for storage.

With a long keeler, as general rule, your feet are further below the surface of the water. On my Twister, I reckoned when I was downstairs I was effectively about waist deep. On the Arcona, I doubt that I'm knee deep. Strangely, deeper feels more comfortable - maybe something to do with a smaller arc that one's head moves through when the boat moves.

And then, it's very difficult to knock the keel off of a longie. And they're quite good at shrugging off potlines that are threatening the prop or rudder. And you've got full depth support for the rudder too, so that's less likely to come a cropper.

 

[Fourbees]

Long fin?

I sometimes think a "long fin" keel is a good compromise, as in the Rustler 42 (not that I could afford one, but plenty of other boats have longish fins). With a short fin, although you've got less drag and they are easier to manoeuvre (especially in reverse, which admittedly is no problem mid-ocean!), I worry about keel tripping if hitting a sandbank, or indeed the effect of colliding with a submerged shipping container. You've only got a few bolts holding the keel on, and if it falls off you're in trouble (plus even if it doesn't, you could weaken the boat's structure). Plus the unsupported spade rudder is anathema to me - I'd never have a boat with one, as they are so vulnerable.

 

[Conachair]

Well I've only been offshore on my own long keel boat so can't really compare what offshore is like in a fin. But it certainly is easy to balance the sails, tracks great and heaves to nicely. You counter your own argument about maybe being a little slower by saying that overall hardly any time is spent on passage anyway.

But on top of that is strength. Though mine is steel so solid as a rock anyway. Then in addition is having the rubustness of a transom hung rudder with the prop in an aperture a little safer from stray ropes and nets.

Don't think I'd sleep well at all offshore on a boat with an exposed spade rudder.

And again on top of all a factor might be that the older designs which are built much heavier than they are these days were just made that way.

 

[rotrax]

The earlier posts sum it up nicely. For peace of mind a long keel boat has inbuilt features that make it less likely for certain potentialy serious problems to happen. Our long keel heavy cutter is slow and not close winded. But when lightweight fin keelers are reefing she picks up and goes and has a very nice motion without any slamming. We are happy with our chosen compromise.

 

[jwilson]

I am trying to work out why so many people put 'long keel' as a really desirable aspect of a blue water boat? I am going to suggest that it doesn't make much sense any more when you compare it with lots of more modern fin keeled designs - and it might be argued that fin keels actually make a lot more sense.

I am not claiming some great insight, but I have owned long keeled boats, and I have sailed across oceans in fin and long keeled boats so I suppose I have some experience and first hand knowledge. The key aspect as far as I can see is the overall shape of the hull - NOT whether the thing has a long keel or not.

Long keeled boats are often slower and I suggest in the whole sailing experience their ability to track and sail themselves is as much a hindrance as a help. I have this deep feeling that in the days before reliable autopilots and self steering, a long keel and the ability to stay on course was what sold the thing to the long distance sailor, but self steering (mechanical or electric) is very much more reliable nowadays and perhaps the the small occasional gain in directional stability is completely outweighed by the disadvantages of less then sparkling performance and the difficulties of maeuvering under power. Some people will say that the auto-pilot will be working harder, but I am not advocating a radical fin keeled racing machine - rather a more staid fin keeled boat that behaves itself in a seaway, in the same way that a long keeled boat sometimes can.

Futhermore, people setting off on blue water sailing seem to forget that the vast majority of their time will be at anchor and they will only spend a relatively short period of time in the overall scheme of things actually sailing across the oceans. Of course being safe and sensible when sailing the ocean is a good thing, but if the design of the boat takes much of the pleasure out of sailing around the area when you get somewhere, then what's the point? I have known people who through planning and care have sailed round the world and have never been in much above a force 6. The long keeled boat might heave to very comfortably, but I will suggest that a decent fin keeled boat can be just as comfortable if its well sorted and balanced. It also shortens passage time, and as the tedious part of the long distance passage is the days and days at sea, so anything that reduces that by a day or two gets my vote.

I have this suspicion that some of the people who advocate long keels are more armchair sailors than actual sailors. The wisdom is regurgitated because its what Slocum said when he sailed Spray etc etc. But times have moved on and so long as your fin keeled boat is not too radical and flighty downwind, then why not enjoy the extra volume inside, the predictable handling under power and sail, and the increased performance that come from a modern fin keeled boat?

Sadly some people's opinion of fin keeled boats is based on the fat bottomed horrors that are produced for occasional light wind sailing, and whose performnce under sail is an (predictably) unpredictable nightmare of broaches and rounding up in the smallest of gusts.

So there's my two pennyworth - and you can shoot me down at will. I'll take comments more seriously from those who have owned/sailed boats with both sorts of keel though!

I agree entirely. Have owned both a very trad long-keeler and a modern AWB, also some long-distance sailing on all sorts of boats. Fin and skeg is at least as suitable for long-distance as long keels. Equally however a very few long-keelers - Chuck Paine designs especially - combine more modern hull shapes with semi-long keels.

 

[benjenbav]

I hope no-one minds my offering an opinion. I might be thought to be a bit of an armchair sailor given that my current boat has, err, two large diesels and zero sails. But for what it's worth I would suggest that the key attribute in terms of sea-kindliness is the ability to heave to.

I think that if one classified the long keelers and the fin keelers which can be hove-to on the one hand and the fin keelers which can't on the other, then one might be mking a useful distinction.

I think this might be what the OP was suggesting anyway so it's probably time for me to slink back to my dieselly lair.

 

[LouisBrowne]

I do not think that a long keel is a guarantee of directional stability; the only long keeler I have owned suffered quite badly from weather helm and was not at all pleasant to steer. I don't think this is unique: Maurice Griffiths talks of using tiller lines to provide purchase to ease the strain of steering (though this might have as much to do with using a tiller to turn a rudder the size and shape of a barn door).

Long keelers don't need to reef as early as flatter-bottomed fin keelers but this comes at the expense of light-airs speed. Also, although a long-keeler will carry on upwind for longer without broaching, this does not mean that they heel any less, in fact the slack-bilged narrow designs of the fifties and early sixties sail at much greater angles of heel than more modern fin keelers with more form stability. I shudder at the memory of beating down channel for three days at an angle of 40 degrees. Uncomfortable and exhausting.

As to unsupported spade rudders, such advances have been made in engineering over the last twenty years that I think they would now be safe for the purposes for which the yacht is intended provided she is from a reputable designer and builder.

 

[Chris_Robb]

Having owned one long keeler - a Victory 40, and now a not so extreme fin and spade rudder Westerly Oceanlord, I would have these observations.

1. The Victory would stay straight as a die on reaches broad reaches and running, so if you were doing 8 knots, you covered 8 knots. The Oceanlord whilst being easy to helm down wind, has a tendency to sail a track that looks like a snake has been there. So 8 knots is not what you get. The Victory was the only boat I managed 200 miles in 24 hours. (she's a motor sailer)

2. Off wind sailing is harder for the helmsman with the Oceanlord, though not as impossible as a Bav38 holiday I sailed once. The Victory had no tendency to broach - at least I never had one even under spinnaker.

3. The Oceanlord is much nicer for living on, though holds less fuel 45Gals (200 gals) water 100 gal (200 gals)

What would I ideally like? A boat designed by Vandestatt with the cut away forefoot long keel and balanced rudder of the Victory and the accommodation of the oceanlord.

 

[john_morris_uk]

The earlier posts sum it up nicely. For peace of mind a long keel boat has inbuilt features that make it less likely for certain potentialy serious problems to happen. Our long keel heavy cutter is slow and not close winded. But when lightweight fin keelers are reefing she picks up and goes and has a very nice motion without any slamming. We are happy with our chosen compromise.

I don't recall arguing in favour of a lightweight fin keeled boat!

Try some of the medium displacement fin keeled boats and you might be pleasantly surprised. You get more accomodation, a boat that doesn't slam, but it goes faster and is more rewarding to sail.

 

[john_morris_uk]

I'll add one thing (well maybe two or three). Long keel designs generally mean deep bilges - a little bit of bilge water doesn't wash around, upsetting the inhabitants. It also provides a useful cellar for storage.

With a long keeler, as general rule, your feet are further below the surface of the water. On my Twister, I reckoned when I was downstairs I was effectively about waist deep. On the Arcona, I doubt that I'm knee deep. Strangely, deeper feels more comfortable - maybe something to do with a smaller arc that one's head moves through when the boat moves.

And then, it's very difficult to knock the keel off of a longie. And they're quite good at shrugging off potlines that are threatening the prop or rudder. And you've got full depth support for the rudder too, so that's less likely to come a cropper.

The bilge is another question - and some fin keeled boats have bilges that will soak the contents of the adjacent lockers with only half a litre of water sloshing about! A little water goes a long way in such a boat, and I agree that proper bilges are good thing. However proper bilges aren't the sole preserve of long keelers...

Regarding the comfort factor and height of saloon florr compared to the sea level outside - I think you are overstating the case. Firstly, the motion is a function of lots of things - including displacement and there are uncomfortable boats of all keel configurations. Perhaps, because long keeled boats tend to be heavier displacement, they have a reputation for comfort?

As far as knocking the keel off and spade rudders are concerned, I suggest that there are lots of encapsulated fin keeled boats which don't have fins that could be knocked off easily - and if our fin drops off the substantial and over engineered webs and studs that hold it on I will eat my hat.

 

[Poignard]

I have this suspicion that some of the people who advocate long keels are more armchair sailors than actual sailors.

Pity you had to spoil your opening post with that snide, and unnecesary, remark. Do you have any grounds to justify your suspicion?

 

[john_morris_uk]

Well I've only been offshore on my own long keel boat so can't really compare what offshore is like in a fin. But it certainly is easy to balance the sails, tracks great and heaves to nicely. You counter your own argument about maybe being a little slower by saying that overall hardly any time is spent on passage anyway.

But on top of that is strength. Though mine is steel so solid as a rock anyway. Then in addition is having the rubustness of a transom hung rudder with the prop in an aperture a little safer from stray ropes and nets.

Don't think I'd sleep well at all offshore on a boat with an exposed spade rudder.

And again on top of all a factor might be that the older designs which are built much heavier than they are these days were just made that way.

I think the point I was making about passage timing was that most people quite like to make shorter passages. The spade rudder is another question, and I will admit I would rather have a skeg hung (or at least partially skeg hung rudder on our own boat, but I also try not to let my imagination run away with me, and I know that when we go offshore, there are plans for an alternative steering sytem already taking place. Its an attitude of mind thing though - as spade rudders are fitted to lots of boats that sail round the world. Just make sure its properly engineered - and I guess that if anything hits a semi-submerged container, you are in the poo unless you are in a steel boat perhaps.

The trouble with steel boats is the maintenance and the fact that you can't have a very small one - because of the weight issues.

 

[Seajet]

John,

I'm with you all the way on this one !

I've sailed a few long keel boats, and the term 'wetted area drag' springs to mind.

The much vaunted longitudinal steering stability is pretty much an urban myth too; my Anderson with a rather narrow chord keel sails herself, it's all a matter of set-up and balance.

Short fins aren't always brilliant, such as when drying out; attention is required - my Carter 30 tried to sit on her back end, requiring ropes under the stern holding her level - and some examples like Listangs can't take the point loading on the hull but I think they're rare nowadays, tending to be 1960's-70's types.

Fin keels are a result of Darwinian evolution; Designer Chuck Paine's quite brilliant Victoria 30 looks very traditional, but handles sublimely and goes like a relative rocket, thanks to her modern fin keel...

 

[Vara]

If long keels are so good, why doesn't anybody make them any more.

I loved sailing the Nic 32, stable, good in very strong weather, lovely motion but a nightmare in marinas, cramped and not particularly fast.

But things move on and now with a conservative fin and skeg I'm a happy bunny and wouldn't go back for all the tea....

 

[john_morris_uk]

Pity you had to spoil your opening post with that snide, and unnecesary, remark. Do you have any grounds to justify your suspicion?

I didn't mean it to be snide in any way. There does seem to be a sub group of sailors who are very quick to say that they would never go offshore unless it was in a long keeled boat - or the people will say that the only thing wrong with such and such a boat is that it hasn't got a long keel and I do wonder where they get their opinions from. The whole point of my post was to suggest that peoples adulation of long keels, almost for their own sake, is not based on experience. but is merely trotting out what they percieve to be the received wisdom on the subject.

My apologies if I made the point in a rude way.

I quite enjoy sailing long keeled boats - there's often something quite nice about the way that they sail through the waves and don't slam, but I have also sailed long keeled boats that slam their bow on waves approaching from weather, that have lee helm and sail like dogs if you don't attend very closely to sail trim.

However as a rule I have had more fun sailing a long fin boat... especially if we need to beat to windward for any length of time.

 

[Conachair]

I think the point I was making about passage timing was that most people quite like to make shorter passages. The spade rudder is another question, and I will admit I would rather have a skeg hung (or at least partially skeg hung rudder on our own boat, but I also try not to let my imagination run away with me, and I know that when we go offshore, there are plans for an alternative steering sytem already taking place. Its an attitude of mind thing though - as spade rudders are fitted to lots of boats that sail round the world. Just make sure its properly engineered - and I guess that if anything hits a semi-submerged container, you are in the poo unless you are in a steel boat perhaps.

The trouble with steel boats is the maintenance and the fact that you can't have a very small one - because of the weight issues.

Well this does touch on an aspect of bluewater that hardly ever gets mentioned. Possibly never by non bluewater sailors.

My take on it sort of goes like this....

It's very difficult to get any kind of accurate statistical view on what aspects of boats are unsafe for bluewater, far too few of everything, to few boats, to few accidents, the circumstances of any accidents are too varied to get a handle on boat design as a root cause.

What is valid though, is your perception of safety. Now I would never, ever consider a boat with an unsupported spade rudder as a bluewater boat. Perception is reason enough. If you take, say five or six years of a tiny little nagging fear that I'm going to catch a net or some 3" thick rope around it
So add up six years of tiny nagging doubt which doesn't need to be there and you have a substantial reason to go on a different boat.

Spade rudder maybe isn't the best example as I do think you'd be crazy to consider something like that as bluewater, not if you get caught in a net but when. Probably a few handred miles off a continent very far away.

As for the speed thing, thinking back to the cruisers I hung around with, speed wasn't that big a deal. The boat has to be so many things at the same time that it's difficult to be able to look at any one aspect in isolation. And quite often the boat is the one you've got, not the one you'd like to have. Everyone likes to get their boats sailing well but a good passage is one where nothing broke! Cruisers tend to be cautious sailors. Catching a fish or 3 would gain points towards a good passage as well. But taking a day or 2 longer across an ocean really isn't that big a deal, it's cheaper out there for one thing.

So ignore it all and get a boat you feel safe in

 

[Chris_Robb]

The bilge is another question - and some fin keeled boats have bilges that will soak the contents of the adjacent lockers with only half a litre of water sloshing about! A little water goes a long way in such a boat, and I agree that proper bilges are good thing. However proper bilges aren't the sole preserve of long keelers...

Regarding the comfort factor and height of saloon florr compared to the sea level outside - I think you are overstating the case. Firstly, the motion is a function of lots of things - including displacement and there are uncomfortable boats of all keel configurations. Perhaps, because long keeled boats tend to be heavier displacement, they have a reputation for comfort?

As far as knocking the keel off and spade rudders are concerned, I suggest that there are lots of encapsulated fin keeled boats which don't have fins that could be knocked off easily - and if our fin drops off the substantial and over engineered webs and studs that hold it on I will eat my hat.

John, doesn't the Sealord have a spade rudder like the Oceanlord? Oceanlords is built like a brick ****house with a massive stainless steel solid stock, bearinged at deck level and the hull, unlike later ones that terminated under the double central bunk level.