What is the point in NHC

[Judders]

So as to avoid fred drift elsewhere:-

What is the point in NHC?

What is the point in any sport where the worse you prepare, the worse you perform, the easier they make it for you?

Conversely, what is the point in a sport where the harder you work and the better you perform the officials make it harder for you to win?

 

[flaming]

Beats me.

Last time this came up someone tried to argue that it showed how well you were progressing. Which is odd, I have found that simply looking at the results sheet and comparing that to the last race, shows how I'm progressing.

 

[Georgio]

I could not agree more, under NHC there is no incentive to do training, buy better sails or deck hardware, etc, etc. Makes me think of a primary school sports day when everyone has a medal for taking part.

One-design is where it's at if you really want to know how good you, your crew and your boat are.

 

[Ceirwan]

NHC to me completely negates the point of racing..
No incentive to get better as you'll just be penalised for it, even casual racing is supposed to be a competition of some sort.

Not only that the base figures I've looked at seem way way way out.

Our club now offers an option of racing with a Byron number instead of NHC if you don't want to go full IRC. I think this is will be much better.

 

[Racecruiser]

Can't see the sense myself and then of course there is the ISC handicap for the Round the Island which is roughly half the entry - it even has a Roman Bowl albeit silver not gold. I think ISC should say if you want to race get an IRC rating. Not that I've done it for years, great spectacle and all that but the odds of bashing the boat are quite high.

 

[Piddy]

My club persevered with NHC for a couple of seasons but everyone got to hate it.
Whilst accepting that any kind of adjusting handicap system is effectively a personal handicap system, the adjustments being based on time differences tend to heavily penalise an extreme race where one boat may make it past a tidal gate and wins by a considerable margin. It then seems to take two seasons of coming last to re-adjust back to an appropriate handicap.
We have developed a position based system for our own use that gently adjusts a PY number each race with a maximum change of 5% over a season or 10 PY points in any race. After one season, the racing fleet was quite happy to use it again this coming season.
The idea of measurement based systems is great if you have a boat designed for racing. The ISC also throws out strange handicaps where my old Moody 376 was required to give time to Bill Dixon in his shiny new Moody 49 when we last did the RTIR in 2009.
It seems to me that most boats designed to suit a measurement system of one sort or another will tend to do reasonably well on any measurement system. Boats designed for comfort, whilst not necessarily slow don't always have the bulges in the right place!

 

[Judders]

I'm all in favour of simplified ratings. ISC is probably the biggest 'round our way, RSYC run one too that works and is fair, as did most clubs until the RYA bullied them into going with NHC. Interestingly I know two Hamble clubs have now gone back to offering their own club handicap.

What I don't get is handicaps that constantly move.

The old PY adjustments where a club would tweak your handicap annually were sort of ok because it was a tweak to keep club racing interesting, but NHC is just not sport in my view.

 

[Piddy]

In our case, all adjustments are now based on race results avoiding the emotive handicap bar discussions.
Those that win get the handicap made slightly worse, this that come last get an improvement and those mid fleet don't change.

When I was administering our racing, it was so difficult to change an obviously wrong handicap as the owner would just ask "why?". I would then have to convince this person that despite him believing he was the best sailor with the best prepared boat sailing perfect races, he was still winning races too often, even with worn out sails and a fouled hull.
As the whole fleet signed up for the NHC disaster, they had already agreed in principle to have personal handicaps for their boat and could see the benefit in that the under prepared boat with the worn sails will gradually come into alignment with everyone else. It seems so far that the best prepared boats, that are sailed well will gravitate to the top.

 

[Birdseye]

The old PY adjustments where a club would tweak your handicap annually were sort of ok because it was a tweak to keep club racing interesting, but NHC is just not sport in my view.

On which basis I guess that golf isnt a sport. Nor is horse racing. In your view.

Georgio made the reply for me when he said "under NHC there is no incentive to do training, buy better sails or deck hardware, "
He's wrong about the training but what he is pointing out is that in IRC you can buy a win through buying better sails, better deck hardware and indeed, as MrMing points out, a competitive boat etc. Money talks at least as much as skill in IRC.

Georgio goes on to say "One-design is where it's at if you really want to know how good you, your crew and your boat are" which is true up to a point. But are there many one design fleets outside the Solent? Are there many in the Solent these days? We have none within a hundred miles of here

But the answer in the end is in the numbers participating. Round here at least twice as many boats race NHC as IRC and at a guess the reason is that they dont have to get serious and enter an arms race to do so. It helps that they can use their boat for something other than racing too.

Interestingly we had an evening presentation at the club this winter by two guys, one from the RORC promoting IRC and one from the RYA promoting NHC. The latter didnt say much but the IRC guy pushed the handicap hard. He didnt get a single bite to my knowledge - none of the large number of NHC racers there were interested

P.S. Judders - if your club was tweaking the PY handicap annually they werent running the system the way it should have been done. Mind you they were far from alone in that. Some clubs never altered the numbers at all. It was a sort of faux IRC.

 

[flaming]

On which basis I guess that golf isnt a sport. Nor is horse racing. In your view.

Well Golf is when it's just lowest shots wins. When it's done on a handicap it's a fudge, you don't actually win if you shoot 10 more shots than the other guy but handicap below him. I haven't got a clue about horse racing!

Georgio made the reply for me when he said "under NHC there is no incentive to do training, buy better sails or deck hardware, "
He's wrong about the training but what he is pointing out is that in IRC you can buy a win through buying better sails, better deck hardware and indeed, as MrMing points out, a competitive boat etc. Money talks at least as much as skill in IRC.

To a point, yes. And it's true that crazy sums have been spent by owners looking for that last few fractions of a knot. But this is an equipment sport, it's always going to be that. Going back to Golf, we just gave a retirement gift to a longstanding employee. I had no idea you could spend that much on a golf bat! But he was very happy, as he'd wanted that particular bat since his friend turned up with one and beat him. Who knows if it's actually any better, could just be in the mind. Same is true with a lot of the spending you see going on with the IRC classes.

Georgio goes on to say "One-design is where it's at if you really want to know how good you, your crew and your boat are" which is true up to a point. But are there many one design fleets outside the Solent? Are there many in the Solent these days? We have none within a hundred miles of here

OD is of course where it's at. But even then it is often an arms race. If a boat shows up with a new sail that claims to be slightly different in some way, and wins a big regatta, how many orders do you think the sailmaker gets on the following monday? Only those that really strictly control the sail choice get round this, but even then there are issues, and that kind of control is almost unheard of in yachts.

Very true that there are a dwindling number of Yacht ODs. Which is a real shame. But the difficulty of persuading 10 or more sucessful people to all buy the same thing is well known. A lot of people who can afford to spend £150k + on a new boat, then the annual bills, are the type of people who balk at the idea that they would do that and have no (real or perceived) advantage over the other boats on the start line. That is, sadly, just the nature of the type of people who can most often afford that type of boat!
And it's also true that their are owners for whom the tweaking and playing the rating game over the winter is just as rewarding as the racing in the Summer. And the boatyards of the Solent will be keen that this continues!

But the answer in the end is in the numbers participating. Round here at least twice as many boats race NHC as IRC and at a guess the reason is that they dont have to get serious and enter an arms race to do so. It helps that they can use their boat for something other than racing too.

And in the Solent it's very much the other way round. At Cowes week there are 7 IRC classes and 2 ISC classes. Only the RTI gets more Cruisers, but for a very large majority of them it's a once a year thing. The week in, week out racing appears to be heavily biased in favour of IRC or OD.

For what it's worth I entirely agree that the biggest barrier to IRC racing is the "need" to spend on sails. And it's a really tough one to crack, as giving a credit for "non fancy" sails would open up any number of potential potholes. I've said in the past that I have an issue with the way that IRC does not penalise at all modifications to the sail handling, and upgrades to the cordage at all, whilst simultaneously disallowing any modifications to the cabin to make it more suitable for racing.

But also for what it's worth, you do not in my opinion need to have new sails every year to win at a decent level in IRC. For example when we won our class at the IRC nationals the Main was 2 years old, the kites probably about the same, except the storm kite that basically won us the regatta, which is as old as the boat. I think the only new sail we'd had that year was a number 3. Our current main has a taffeta backing and is going into its third season, I'm not expecting to be off the pace at all because it isn't brand new. Budgeting for 1 new sail per year seems to be perfectly reasonable for the type of racing we do. Now I accept that is a huge amount more spending than the average cruiser who is doing a little racing on the side would consider spending.

Surely the whole reason that there are different handicap systems in the first place is precisely because there are different levels of commitment etc. The chap who takes it all "seriously" with a new boat, decent crew, nice sails etc isn't really doing the same sport as the cruiser who just takes his standard boat with all the cruising gear on board, recruits a few mates and sails round the course. It may look the same, but really that's like saying I'm doing the same thing as Mark Cavendish when I get on my bike.

There is nothing at all stopping clubs like yours in saying, we're going to use IRC, but there will be 2 classes. And in the SIs we will say that the "cruiser" class has to have non fancy sails, and have a full complement of crockery, or however you choose to differentiate the cruisers. But the fundamentals will be a measurement rule that ought to treat similar boats similarly. It's the idea that the handicap is adjusted for the skill of the crew that just seems so Alien to people who spend time and effort in trying to improve their crew work, precisely to stand more chance of winning.

 

[KREW2]

On which basis I guess that golf isnt a sport. Nor is horse racing. In your view.

Interestingly we had an evening presentation at the club this winter by two guys, one from the RORC promoting IRC and one from the RYA promoting NHC. The latter didnt say much but the IRC guy pushed the handicap hard. He didnt get a single bite to my knowledge - none of the large number of NHC racers there were interested
.

Much the same happened at our club, the IRC presentation was very pushy and, I heard that our forth coming Z class captain was only going to take the post if the whole fleet converted. He mostly got his way with about an 80% conversion.

Monday night racing was just crowd who go out and have fun sometimes swapping crew if 1 is short handed. Last year about 8 boats would turn up on a Monday and we had 4 different classes. Wednesday night racing is taken more serious. This has resulted in the not so serious race night being ruined in my opinion.

I quite like the old PY system. If there was another club around here that was able offer it I would join.

I don't want to load and unload my boat every Monday; and I don't know of any crew in our club that go out training., although some have been sailing together for many years. A system that provides a bit of incentive for us newbies would be nice.

As for those who want to spend a fortune and time training. why not consider going pro.

 

[flaming]

I don't want to load and unload my boat every Monday; and I don't know of any crew in our club that go out training., although some have been sailing together for many years. A system that provides a bit of incentive for us newbies would be nice.

I don't understand why you would feel you had to unload your boat for a non serious Monday night race, especially if none of the other non serious Monday night racers were doing so? IRC doesn't say you have to unload, that's all down to how serious the racing is, not the rating system being used.

 

[Georgio]

I think Flaming has just hit the nail on the head there.

There is always going to be some boats in whatever type of class of racing that will spend more than others. But a positive outcomes of that are the new ideas and developments that trickle down to the rest of the fleet. In a one-design class it is often the case that a season-old sail (that are perfectly good) can be bought for a significant saving compared to new.

Also, while spending 30% more on a Carbon sail over a Pentex (figures plucked from the air) may make a marginal difference one bad tack or call can easily over-ride this so teamwork and practice is much more important - and costs nothing.

A source of constant amazement is that most racers will complain at some point about the rating they or their competitors have, they also acknowledge that one-design solves this and is a better option. Given this why are there not more people buying and racing in established one-designs such as the Contessa 32 class in the Solent who run a great series. The boats are relatively lost cost, the racing is very close at the top of the fleet and they have their own start at major events like Cowes week.

Yes they are slower than more modern stuff and perhaps less sexy but do the racers care about racing or about having the latest and greatest. Or perhaps they just like having the excuse in their back pocket that so-an-so out-spent them on sails and they have a bandit handicap.

 

[DJE]

With a very diverse fleet such as ours there is never going to be a handicap system that is fair to all boats in all weather and tidal conditions. NHC shares the prizes around and keeps people interested. It also saves me having to justify the adjustments. "Blame the RYA mate" - end of discussion.
The best sailors still tend to win more than the weaker ones. The heavier boats do better in strong winds, the lighter boats in light winds, and the very slow boats in down tide passage races. The series prize inevitably goes to the one who turns up for the most races.
Sometimes it is more about taking part than it is about winning.

 

[Georgio]

As for those who want to spend a fortune and time training. why not consider going pro.

I'll remember that line for when I see a bunch of cyclists going by the house on their fancy bikes. Or the runners that do circuits around the village in the latest trainers.

Surly anyone that has an interest in racing anything wants to get better - if not then what's the point.

 

[KREW2]

I don't understand why you would feel you had to unload your boat for a non serious Monday night race, especially if none of the other non serious Monday night racers were doing so? IRC doesn't say you have to unload, that's all down to how serious the racing is, not the rating system being used.

I don't really unload my boat, maybe life raft and inflatable tender, in any case being NHC I don't have to.
Mondays used to be 8/9 boats all flying the E flag and racing under NHC. The honed crews still mostly won.
I did, with the help of a ringer on board manage to win one race. The week after a I had two ringers on board, and even though we took line honours, with our handicap adjustment we came fourth.
IRC has hijacked Monday evenings, there is now only three of us on NHC, but it is still nice to go out and enjoy a sail with a purpose.

 

[mrming]

We're dual scoring at our club this year - same start line, same course, boats with IRC certs get IRC results in addition to the NHC results. The hope is that the more serious boats will be happy but everyone else can still join in.

 

[savageseadog]

We're dual scoring at our club this year - same start line, same course, boats with IRC certs get IRC results in addition to the NHC results. The hope is that the more serious boats will be happy but everyone else can still join in.

Dual scoring is a great idea but some of our club "hot shots" are very resistant to finding themselves losing to 30 year old tubs driven by people with little idea of the rules or even how to sail.

 

[Birdseye]

Surely the whole reason that there are different handicap systems in the first place is precisely because there are different levels of commitment etc. The chap who takes it all "seriously" with a new boat, decent crew, nice sails etc isn't really doing the same sport as the cruiser who just takes his standard boat with all the cruising gear on board, recruits a few mates and sails round the course. It may look the same, but really that's like saying I'm doing the same thing as Mark Cavendish when I get on my bike.

There is nothing at all stopping clubs like yours in saying, we're going to use IRC, but there will be 2 classes. And in the SIs we will say that the "cruiser" class has to have non fancy sails, and have a full complement of crockery, or however you choose to differentiate the cruisers. But the fundamentals will be a measurement rule that ought to treat similar boats similarly. It's the idea that the handicap is adjusted for the skill of the crew that just seems so Alien to people who spend time and effort in trying to improve their crew work, precisely to stand more chance of winning.

Got to agree with most of what you have said. The chap who takes it seriously is doing the same sport but just not in the same way. Which is why we have two handicap systems even though it sometimes seems that the IRC lot would prefer the casual NHC racer not to race at all rather than do so under a performance handicap.

Your last paragraph is unrealistic. NHC base numbers are a simpler form of IRC handicaps already ie based unlike PY on boat dimensions / VPP. The starting point does treat similar boats similarly. Thereafter the way of taking account of crew skills, boat loading, sail age etc is by adjusting from this base number. What would happen with your IRC proposal is that some competitors would start unloading the boats , a problem that we already have to a degree but which is minimised by the regular race to race adjustments. But dont deceive yourself into thinking that crew skill is irrelevant in NHC. To the contrary, NHC requires week by week skill improvement if you are to beat the week by week handicap adjustments and come out on top.

Interested in your comment about Solent boat numbers. Cowes week isnt the full story. If you took into account all the club racing evenings and weekends a opposed to regattas, would it still mostly be IRC? Thats not the impression I got from the RORC guy at the talk.

 

[KREW2]

But dont deceive yourself into thinking that crew skill is irrelevant in NHC. To the contrary, NHC requires week by week skill improvement if you are to beat the week by week handicap adjustments and come out on top.
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This is something I have been trying to get across to club members who oppose NHC, and my point is highlighted in post #16.

The race when we came fourth we had Adam Bowers on board. He is a member of our club and quite regularly comes out on peoples boats just for fun, and a bit of practical advice. The only thing was he knackered all of us. The spinnaker was going up and down like a whores drawers, we were first over the line, but no win.
I think the handicap should only be adjusted in a series. When the six, seven races are over the boat should go back to a base handicap to start the next, and this base handicap should be used for one off passage or cup races.
This would prevent people losing on purpose to keep a favourable handicap, then unloading the boat just to gain an advantage in a one day cup race.
Not that I think anyone from our club would want to do that.